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ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

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Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#131
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Supreme Court has ruled on similar questions, in that there's a distinction between how the "speech" is intended and how it is construed. For instance, someone waving a nazi flag might feel to me like an incitement to violence, while to them it might feel like an expression of free speech, with no intention to incite violence. In that sense it would be protected speech, despite how I feel. So the question…

> For instance, someone waving a nazi flag might feel to me like an incitement to violence, while to them it might feel like an expression of free speech, with no intention to incite violence. Disregarding how you both feel about it, waving a nazi flag legitimizes and strengthens an inherently violent ideology of ethnic cleansing. Intent - real or pretend - doesn't matter.

I have been stuck for a while on trying to identify terms for being "inside an argument" versus "outside an argument".

Here, you are outside my argument, and from that perspective I have trouble disagreeing with you.

But inside the argument, I am correct (or "technically correct" from your perspective), and you are wrong - meaning, the Supreme Court, the American view consistent with the 1st amendment - that is more in alignment with my argument.

But I feel like I remember there being a set of academic terms that refer to each of our perspectives. Being inside vs outside the argument. Does anyone know?

And there's also the (very American) question of when "technically correct" is no longer correct anyway, like when being lawful is unjust, and civil disobedience is called for - oftentimes accepted by history (MLK's civil disobedience, boycotts, shutting down roads, etc) - a good example from this week is the perspective of the protesters who tore down that statue, and the perspective of the very long line of people who are seeking to turn themselves in to (falsely) confess.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could believe this, but that doesn't make it the proper way. To be honest, we don't know how to stop these ideas. The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world. It's scary to say but there are theories floating around from hundreds of years ago that were made by different philosophers about the nature of these. For example, the paradox of toleranc…

"The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world." The Nazis first attacked and destroyed the free press and other free-speech institutions. Robust legal protections for free speech, and a culture of vigorously defending it, will prevent tyrants from gaining and maintaining power. There is no 'paradox of tolerance'. The intolerant are intolerant, no mat…

I fear though that "Peaceful Racists" will spread to all conservatives. That > 60 million people could legitimately vote for a racist, xenophobic and sexist bigot seem to point out that these people are OK with racism, even if they're not active participants. Which is extremely disturbing.

From what I've read, anti-semitism, while it existed, wasn't mainstream in Germany as well. But the Nazis were "Peaceful Racists" at first (they changed pretty quickly) and seized power. I genuinely fear the same might happen in the US ...

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#133
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

Exactly. I believe the best way to fight fascism is to have open dialogue and expose repugnant ideas to the court of public opinion. This requires free speech. The initiation of force outside of self defence is amoral.

If you refuse to recognize my existence as an equal human being deserving civil rights, you give up your right to be treated in a civil manner by me. Violence has absolutely no place in arguments between people, but if one party's only intention is to wipe out the other simply for being different, it means the second party is driven to use all options, including violence.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#134
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing Neo-Nazis to Muslims is incredible, and it says something ugly about your beliefs about Neo-Nazis and about Muslims. If, instead, you mean, civil rights for members of Muslim extremist organizations, then your comparison would be reasonable. So, you tell me. Should Al Qaeda be given permits for rallies across the US to recruit people to commit acts of terror? We aren't talking about people who merely say ra…

i never drew an equivalence between muslims and nazi's but go ahead and get offended if you want

In all honesty, I got the same impression from your comment. Please try to be more careful with your wording; its hard to communicate true intention on an internet forum.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#136
post #94
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, I'm on team antifa in Charlottesville. I sure as hell don't want to be on the side of the Nazis who murdered someone. Which is a thinly-veiled ad homimen directed at me. The truth is that in my experience, the authoritarian left (antifa included) have engaged in violent suppression of speech they find distasteful. As a result, I believe that they are amoral cultists.

because you acknowledge that we should attempt respectful dialogue with the other side (being better than them), he just insinuated you are being an apologist for the 1 psycopath that murdered someone. he just did exactly what you criticized the left for and you get the downvotes... sorry my dude

Yup. Ad hominems on HN are OK, so long as it's against people who don't support the violence left.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#137
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world." The Nazis first attacked and destroyed the free press and other free-speech institutions. Robust legal protections for free speech, and a culture of vigorously defending it, will prevent tyrants from gaining and maintaining power. There is no 'paradox of tolerance'. The intolerant are intolerant, no mat…

I fear though that "Peaceful Racists" will spread to all conservatives. That > 60 million people could legitimately vote for a racist, xenophobic and sexist bigot seem to point out that these people are OK with racism, even if they're not active participants. Which is extremely disturbing. From what I've read, anti-semitism, while it existed, wasn't mainstream in Germany as well. But the Nazis were "Peaceful Racists"…

This is exactly what I mean by the paradox of tolerance. If we're tolerant towards intolerance, we're going to be outed.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#138
post #133
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I believe the best way to fight fascism is to have open dialogue and expose repugnant ideas to the court of public opinion. This requires free speech. The initiation of force outside of self defence is amoral.

If you refuse to recognize my existence as an equal human being deserving civil rights, you give up your right to be treated in a civil manner by me. Violence has absolutely no place in arguments between people, but if one party's only intention is to wipe out the other simply for being different , it means the second party is driven to use all options, including violence.

One may give up right to be treated in a civil manner by you. That part's fine. You don't need to be civil towards people who are repugnant.

But it still does not give you justification for violence or threats. No, you are not "driven" to violence. If you are violent, violence is your decision for which you are responsible.

(We are not talking about self defense situation, we're talking about going to someone else's non-violent demonstration to stop it by force).

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#139
post #7

> We ... take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence. So does this apply to Antifa, BlackBloc, et al as well?

This post doesn't blacklist any specific organizations, but rather any case that involve violence. The ACLU will likely continue[1] to defend peaceful white supremacists. The ban will go for any situation or organization that involves violence. As for Antifa, I've been unable to find any videos/pictures/unbiased reports that Antifa started any of the violence this past weekend. I don't understand the need to equate t…

> If the KKK didn't exist, Antifa wouldn't exist.

Not true. In my country, KKK does not exist. Antifa still exists and occasionally tries to find excuses for violence.

Mostly it's just tagging graffiti though, and LARPing a revolution.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#140
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world." The Nazis first attacked and destroyed the free press and other free-speech institutions. Robust legal protections for free speech, and a culture of vigorously defending it, will prevent tyrants from gaining and maintaining power. There is no 'paradox of tolerance'. The intolerant are intolerant, no mat…

I fear though that "Peaceful Racists" will spread to all conservatives. That > 60 million people could legitimately vote for a racist, xenophobic and sexist bigot seem to point out that these people are OK with racism, even if they're not active participants. Which is extremely disturbing. From what I've read, anti-semitism, while it existed, wasn't mainstream in Germany as well. But the Nazis were "Peaceful Racists"…

The association of Nazis with conservatives, who defend JUDEO-Christian values, is dishonest to say the least.
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