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A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

nytimes.com

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Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#231

Post by PeterisP »

ucaetano wrote: post #52

San Francisco has more than twice the area of Manhattan, with half the population. The San Francisco Bay Area CSA has about the same population as Switzerland, with 2/3 of the area of Switzerland. Both have similar GDPs. If someone wanted to live in Germany, and commute to work in Zurich, with Swiss salaries and German cost-of-living, their commute would be about 1h15min. The housing and infrastructure problems in th…

I feel that it's misleading to say that the problems are self-inflicted. People who work in SFBA or rent there are suffering from the housing and infrastructure problems that are (to certain extent) caused by residents and homeowners in SFBA - these are two different populations with only a partial overlap, so the problems aren't self-inflicted, they're inflicted by one group onto the other.

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#232

Post by ucaetano »

lisper wrote: post #161
ucaetano wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never claimed them to be stupid. Your words, not mine. But the Stanford professor writing about the plight of the poor workers commuting for 2 hours lives in a multi-million dollar home in Atherton and votes for anti-poor-people zoning laws. The young, billionaire, startup CEO who wants to cause a positive impact in the world lives in Los Altos Hills, where zoning laws forbid lot sizes smaller than 1 acre, and bans…

> I never claimed them to be stupid. Your words, not mine. The adjective "self-inflicted" has an undeniable negative connotation. Why didn't you say, "deliberately chosen" instead? > The Bay Area housing situation is a tragedy of the commons. No, it's not. It is neither a tragedy, nor does it have anything to do with commons. Yes, it is a case of the rich making life harder for the poor, but that's only a tragedy for…

> Yes, it is a case of the rich making life harder for the poor, but that's only a tragedy for the poor.

No, all parties take part in it. Rent control, mandating low-income units, preventing new developments, preventing gentrification, etc. all constrain supply. And it isn't just the rich doing it.

A more proper description would be a conflict between the insiders and the outsiders, with the insider being anyone who already rents or owns a place. Insiders don't want change, and want outsiders to be punished and taxed.

The commons in this case isn't the land, it's the government and laws.

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#233

Post by closeparen »

0xffff2 wrote: post #138
twblalock wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why punish companies for being successful enough to create attractive, high-paying jobs? The consequences of doing that won't be very good for anyone. A slower economy will hurt the low-income workers a bit more than the high-income workers. What we need is a solution that encourages and accommodates success, not one that punishes it.

Why not punish companies for creating jobs in an already crowded area? How many attractive, high-paying jobs in SF are tied to the city by any physical necessity? If companies want to avoid being punished, all they have to do is move their offices to a less crowded city.

Crowding is the whole point of cities: get lots of people and jobs together in a small space and let them benefit from each other. If lack of crowding is more important to someone than economic opportunity, they can go live in the countryside.

The benefits of centralization & economic opportunity for you but no one else isn't a stable equilibrium or a coherent policy goal. The only way you could plausibly achieve that over the long term is with border controls and immigration policy, something that's explicitly off the table for the interior of the United States per the Constitution.

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#234

Post by ucaetano »

jacinda wrote: post #170
lisper wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never claimed them to be stupid. Your words, not mine. The adjective "self-inflicted" has an undeniable negative connotation. Why didn't you say, "deliberately chosen" instead? > The Bay Area housing situation is a tragedy of the commons. No, it's not. It is neither a tragedy, nor does it have anything to do with commons. Yes, it is a case of the rich making life harder for the poor, but that's only a tragedy for…

It is a choice. The San Francisco Bay Area is already denser than the entire country of Switzerland and has a similar GDP. However, the Swiss have incomparably better public transit. And their taxes are lower than the US. There's no need to become Manhattan or Hong Kong. Just invest in infrastructure.

> There's no need to become Manhattan or Hong Kong. Just invest in infrastructure.

You're not getting the basic point with transit infrastructure: it requires density.

Transit systems are only viable with enough people living and working at walking distance from the stations.

Increasing density decreases traffic, increases transit effectiveness, and reduces environmental impact. It's simple geometry.

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#235

Post by tmpdude01 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #213

This is a pretty amazing example. It raises more questions than it answers however. The big one is "Why continue working in SF with this horrible commute?" Market dynamics suggest that in a 'free' market, on an individual basis, a person seeks to maximize their value received. So in this case, if this was an open market, the (commute + $81K/year) > any other option that she might choose. So what are we missing that t…

I immediately searched for the word "pension" in the comments, and your comment was the only one to have it. She's 62 years old, and commuting to this job so that she can maximize her pension.

https://www.calpers.ca.gov/page/employers/benefit-programs/r...

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#237

Post by panic »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #150
santaclaus wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's to stop San Francisco from creating a lot more high-density housing? Entrenched residents who oppose new construction, primarily. Look at the recent kerfuffles involving residents opposing the replacement of parking lots with housing.

Lack of infrastructure as well. Despite the low density, it is pain to get around SF and bay area generally unless you are luck enough to have a trip that starts or ends near one of the few rail lines. Double the density, and getting around would go from bad to worse.

That's not necessarily true. More density could allow people to live closer to work and reduce the amount of traffic.

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#238

Post by ProfessorLayton »

I don't dispute that Bay Area housing is very expensive, and there are plenty of issue it needs to address, but this person seems so have made a personal choice to have that commute, which I commend if thats the lifestyle she wants.

Perhaps her personal circumstances didn't allow for it (Or she chose not to, which is fine too), but a home can be purchased for as little as 3.5% down (FHA) + closing costs. For someone with an 81K salary, their borrowing limit is around ~460k (@43% FHA DTI Limit [1]), and in 2014 (When the person in the article was evicted) there were plenty of homes in that price range in the East Bay. That DTI won't be easy, but neither is a 6-8hr daily commute.

In fact, there are homes/condos right now [2] still in that price range. The crisis is for those making the median household income of say, 52.9K in Oakland, thats the income where one is basically shut out of the housing market.

[1] https://www.fha.com/fha_requirements_debt [2] https://www.redfin.com/city/13654/CA/Oakland/filter/property...

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#239

Post by twblalock »

0xffff2 wrote: post #138
twblalock wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why punish companies for being successful enough to create attractive, high-paying jobs? The consequences of doing that won't be very good for anyone. A slower economy will hurt the low-income workers a bit more than the high-income workers. What we need is a solution that encourages and accommodates success, not one that punishes it.

Why not punish companies for creating jobs in an already crowded area? How many attractive, high-paying jobs in SF are tied to the city by any physical necessity? If companies want to avoid being punished, all they have to do is move their offices to a less crowded city.

If they move to a less-crowded city, and offer good jobs there, that city will become crowded, especially when former employees leave to start other companies in the same area.

That's how Silicon Valley became what it is. If a lot of tech companies moved to other cities, it would probably happen there, too.

Re: A 2:15 Alarm, 2 Trains and a Bus Get Her to Work by 7 A.M

#240

Post by ebiester »

PeterisP wrote: post #231
ucaetano wrote: post #52

San Francisco has more than twice the area of Manhattan, with half the population. The San Francisco Bay Area CSA has about the same population as Switzerland, with 2/3 of the area of Switzerland. Both have similar GDPs. If someone wanted to live in Germany, and commute to work in Zurich, with Swiss salaries and German cost-of-living, their commute would be about 1h15min. The housing and infrastructure problems in th…

I feel that it's misleading to say that the problems are self -inflicted. People who work in SFBA or rent there are suffering from the housing and infrastructure problems that are (to certain extent) caused by residents and homeowners in SFBA - these are two different populations with only a partial overlap, so the problems aren't self-inflicted, they're inflicted by one group onto the other.

For many, like the person in the article, they were the same population until recently.
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