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Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

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Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#21

Post by trgv »

ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

> It's not a lie if you believe it.

-George Costanza

And even if it was a lie, lying is generally not illegal.

The courts generally uphold the right of these groups to express their ideologies. I think correctly.

My opinion is that the best way to deal with this stuff is not outrage. I think people who disagree should politely contradict these sorts of opinions when they're broached and otherwise ignore/disengage from this nonsense.

I don't think overtly or covertly trying to suppress this kind speech is good. Legally speaking these people have a right to express themselves and, pragmatically, I don't think trying to suppress their speech or loudly condemning it actually helps anything.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#22

Post by ZeroGravitas »

ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

Who is calling for "anything"?

I've recently seen Republican presidential hopefuls talking about nuking an entire region to deal with terrorists, killing their families, torturing them, even if not effective, because they deserve it etc.

I've not heard anything worse than "it's okay to punch Nazis" or "the death penalty should apply for this murder" about these particular terrorists. (Neither of which I particularly agree with, but let's keep some sense of scale here).

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#23

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

> I'm honestly looking for a way to find a shred of solid footing here that makes me feel more morally comfortable than "white supremacy is bad, therefore anything done against white supremacists is good."

Don't look for it. There is no moral way to justify it.

Look: The alt-right is evil in ideology, and it's evil in methodology. (Ideology: If you can't buy "all men are created equal", you're un-American. You're also dehumanizing those different than you, which is immoral under almost any reasonable theory of morality. Methodology: Threatening violence against those you disagree with, and being eager to do more than threaten, is for those who are pretty sure that their position can't persuade others.)

Antifa sees this, says "that's wrong and must be opposed" (which is valid), and then adopts almost the exact same methodology. (Trying to deny those they disagree with the opportunity to speak via physical force, rather than clearly and convincingly pointing out for all to see that their position is evil.) The intent may be better, but the methodology is just as evil. "We're going to beat up the people who need beating up, and it will be good when we do it, because we're right about who needs beating up."

No, the methodology condemns antifa. Don't try to find a way to rationalize it. It's wrong. The alt-right needs to be opposed, but don't become like them in opposing them.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#24

Post by grb423 »

People are sick and tired of anti-white (pro-nonwhite) de jure policies and replacement immigration. They feel this country is their rightful homeland and are angry that they had no vote in being replaced. These reactions could have been predicted and were. I guess you can call that "racist" and "white supremacist" but the name-calling just eggs them on and is "not an argument." Instead, let's explain why the white era that started in Athens is now over and that's just natural progress. And if they are genocided in the process well that would be sad. Or I guess we could just dox them.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#25

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

s73ver_ wrote: post #5
ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

Well, for one, take a look at what they're advocating. White supremacists advocate for genocide, for slavery. "Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them?" For me, while I don't participate in doxxing and such, I can't be upset at what's happening to these people. For one, they've been doi…

But Nazis are not just a hair in the food of democracy.

They are at least, like a bug that crawled onto your burger. Maybe not all the way to cockroach but, unquestionably at least a scary spider.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#26

Post by [deleted] »

s73ver_ wrote: post #5
ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

Well, for one, take a look at what they're advocating. White supremacists advocate for genocide, for slavery. "Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them?" For me, while I don't participate in doxxing and such, I can't be upset at what's happening to these people. For one, they've been doi…

[deleted]

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#27

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

grb423 wrote: post #24

People are sick and tired of anti-white (pro-nonwhite) de jure policies and replacement immigration. They feel this country is their rightful homeland and are angry that they had no vote in being replaced. These reactions could have been predicted and were. I guess you can call that "racist" and "white supremacist" but the name-calling just eggs them on and is "not an argument." Instead, let's explain why the white e…

WTF is this argument? Where is the replacement happening? A Mexican sneaks across the border and now does my gardening. Who did he replace?

How is the era of Athens over, because a brown person is allowed to attend my University and learn about Plato and Socrates while sitting next to me?

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#29

Post by liberte82 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #17
ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

I personally believe people should be allowed to say whatever they want, and violence is never acceptable as a response. We've been preventing hate groups from having a platform for decades, and recent events are only giving them one. It is law enforcement's job to enforce any laws that are broken by actions of individuals , within these groups or otherwise, and the justice system's job to prosecute them to the exten…

We hanged Nazis after WW2. Do you believe this was the appropriate action?

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#30

Post by concede_pluto »

liberte82 wrote: post #29
stronglikedan wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally believe people should be allowed to say whatever they want, and violence is never acceptable as a response. We've been preventing hate groups from having a platform for decades, and recent events are only giving them one. It is law enforcement's job to enforce any laws that are broken by actions of individuals , within these groups or otherwise, and the justice system's job to prosecute them to the exten…

We hanged Nazis after WW2. Do you believe this was the appropriate action?

We hanged proven murderers, not every member of an odious political party.
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