Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
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Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#2Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me.
Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", etc. free speech is one facet. But I'm focusing on actions rather than speech here.
Just because someone is a racist, sexist, * ist piece of shit doesn't give someone else the right to shoot them in cold blood... does it? And if not, then how far back does that walk before our response is back at "reasonable American citizens striving to live in a harmonious culture that allows for diversity"?
I feel like my spidey sense is going off when I listen to interviews and get the sense that the person speaking would tell blatant lies without missing a beat to win the argument, because they believe their cause is that just. And I've been getting that prickling a lot when I hear both sides speak about their positions. Which terrifies the hell out of me.
Any thoughts / personal moral positions or frameworks welcome. I'm honestly looking for a way to find a shred of solid footing here that makes me feel more morally comfortable than "white supremacy is bad, therefore anything done against white supremacists is good."
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#3Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
For whomever answers this, it would be interesting if they also gave their view on the CIA torturing of terrorists. For the sake of argument, let's assume their "terrorism" is beyond any doubt (ie, multiple very credible witnesses saw them decapitate an innocent woman or throw a gay person off a roof)
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#4Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
We put people in Guantanamo Bay mostly without proving they've carried out terrorist acts. I disagree with this, but I believe that sect of White Nationalism that would use violence to achieve their goals are no less dangerous than ISIL, ISIS, etc. and they should be scrutinized just like people with those motivations or sympathies since they are already among us.
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#5Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
Well, for one, take a look at what they're advocating. White supremacists advocate for genocide, for slavery.
"Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them?"
For me, while I don't participate in doxxing and such, I can't be upset at what's happening to these people. For one, they've been doing it themselves for years. All the way back to the days when many of them were in GamerGate. So I can't really be upset that they're getting a taste of their own medicine.
"Just because someone is a racist, sexist, * ist piece of shit doesn't give someone else the right to shoot them in cold blood... does it?"
No. But no one is advocating for that.
"And if not, then how far back does that walk before our response is back at "reasonable American citizens striving to live in a harmonious culture that allows for diversity"?"
This is what you have to decide as a human. You make decisions like this every day. You go to a restaurant and find a hair that's not yours in your food. What do you do? It's the same kind of thing. But with Nazis.
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#6Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
Look, I grew up in The South, more specifically in a small town that got swallowed up by Charlotte when the Yankees were moving down in droves due to the banking and housing boom that took place there (ex: when NationsBank and BofA merged) and there was a lot of "city vs rural", "black vs white", "north vs south", "Christian vs secular", "liberal vs conserative" clashes.
Talk to people like they're a person. Stop making generalizations, yelling in people's faces, hell stop fucking posting on the internet. Pick up a phone, write a letter, go meet face to face and do some good old fashioned talking. This applies to both sides.
Yes, supremacists have always been marching, shouting "free speech" and doing their thing. Ignore them, talk to the other conservatives and liberals like they're people, have a rational discussion about very real grey areas, and don't take their positions to extremes. If you have to, ask them where the line is.
Posting shit on Facebook has been the medium by which tiny towns with their single thought leader (typically a pastor) have been thrust into huge cultural and political discussions and have had their views (via the local leader's) shifted because there's too much crap and shit out there. Both sides have bought into the "internet of faces" of the 2010s and don't remember the "internet of never-post-your-real-name" of the 90s and so take anything with a face as a source of truth.
Finally, the invention of unlimited information on the internet means unlimited opportunity to confirm your own biases, so both sides are falling into this trap as well.
Ultimately, it is a problem of unknowingly self-filtering that can be solved by sitting down with a human being and establishing a real connection.
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#7Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
Doxing white supremacists is hardly the same as going out and running them down. What are you suggesting here?
These people go out in the street and burn crosses in front of families' homes. They absolutely should be doxxed.
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#8Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
I find this article relevant: https://stratechery.com/2017/cloudfare-and-stormfront-free-s...
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#9Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
I think this line has been toed up to several times in the last few years, on both sides of the political spectrum.
There was a huge backlash to CA prop-8 a few years ago, and an effort was made to 'out' its supporters. One of the key reasons old CEO Brendan Eich of Mozilla was fired. [0]
In WI a few years ago, there was a recall attempt against the governor, and there was a large effort to identify all the petition signers, and people lost jobs, had appointments to govt panels rescinded, etc. [1]
As much as I can't stand it, and I think it ruins their message (and makes them look like thugs) I'm starting to understand why people at rallies for antifa wear something covering their faces..
[0] http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/06/does-mozilla-dumping-its-c... [1] http://iverifytherecall.com/
Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing
#10Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…
For whomever answers this, it would be interesting if they also gave their view on the CIA torturing of terrorists. For the sake of argument, let's assume their "terrorism" is beyond any doubt (ie, multiple very credible witnesses saw them decapitate an innocent woman or throw a gay person off a roof)
White supremacists should be doxxed, and the CIA should be disbanded.