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ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

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Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#91

Post by mschuster91 »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71
cc81 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

There is nothing fascist in beating up Nazis.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#92

Post by mschuster91 »

SwellJoe wrote: post #75
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one wants their counter protest to be accepted at face value, maybe the organizers should institute a buffer zone. It seems like proximity foments violence, one way or the other.

I think that's a reasonable approach, and there has been criticism of police (on "many sides") that police in Charlottesville didn't do enough to protect peaceful protestors. In this case, it seems that all of the serious injuries were inflicted by Neo-Nazis on peaceful counter-protesters, but there have been cases where antifa has inflicted injury, perhaps even without provocation. Charlottesville police seemed unde…

> Charlottesville police seemed underprepared for this event, in general.

Core problem seems to be that lots of the Nazis (and to a lesser extent, some of the protesters) were heavily armed. It's easy for police to break up a protest where no one is armed, but they sure as hell won't mace a group of heavily armed people, no matter if Nazi, Antifa or whatever.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#93

Post by icu »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71
cc81 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

Exactly. I believe the best way to fight fascism is to have open dialogue and expose repugnant ideas to the court of public opinion. This requires free speech. The initiation of force outside of self defence is amoral.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#94

Post by wooter »

adekok wrote: post #67
SwellJoe wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how one can read that and come away with the gist of it being that antifa caused the violence in Charlottesville. The only people saying that are members of right wing extremist organizations that have, as their guiding principle, the genocide of non-white people. These are groups that planned and trained to wage war against counter-protestors, and for weeks leading up to the event posted to their…

> But, I'm on team antifa in Charlottesville. I sure as hell don't want to be on the side of the Nazis who murdered someone. Which is a thinly-veiled ad homimen directed at me. The truth is that in my experience, the authoritarian left (antifa included) have engaged in violent suppression of speech they find distasteful. As a result, I believe that they are amoral cultists.

because you acknowledge that we should attempt respectful dialogue with the other side (being better than them), he just insinuated you are being an apologist for the 1 psycopath that murdered someone. he just did exactly what you criticized the left for and you get the downvotes... sorry my dude

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#95

Post by generic_user »

cc81 wrote: post #57
gedy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'm referring to events such as the Berkeley Riots [1] where the violence was at least partly incited by Antifa. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

Antifa in the US use potentially deadly violence against people they target. There is a growing body of lawsuits and criminal convictions that will most likely have them declared as domestic terrorists at some point.

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-prof...

Protesting against fascism is all good but violence has to be denounced on all sides with no exceptions.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#96

Post by wooter »

SwellJoe wrote: post #79
boobsbr wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Here are a few: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us... http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil... http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist... http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...

so? do you want to forgo the civil rights of muslims on a similar basis? of course not.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#97

Post by setra »

SwellJoe wrote: post #79
boobsbr wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Here are a few: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us... http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil... http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist... http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...

I have only checked the first link however the NYT article from 2015 states

"48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, including the recent mass killing in Charleston, S.C., compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center."

The pulse nightclub shooting alone killed 49 people. That is more than the entirety of the post 9/11 number white supremacist murders up to 2015 with a single event from 2016.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#99

Post by wooter »

dmitrygr wrote: post #5
Joeri wrote: post #3

So, of I understand this correctly, it's not the message they consider not to be free speech but the (inciting of) violence. I'm all for free speech, but for some messages there's just no context in which they ever become anything but harmful, and maybe dogmatically clinging to free speech isn't the best way to approach things. Then again, it can be a slippery slope towards thought police, so maybe it's best to leave…

maybe it's best to leave the judging of those messages to social pressure. I REALLY hope that that's a joke. Social pressures brought you ACTUAL Nazi Germany and ACTUAL Communist revolutions in multiple countries. Scary...

absolutely not. all of those ACTUAL horrible situations involved gross disdain for 1st Amendment principles

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#100

Post by [deleted] »

dmitrygr wrote: post #5
Joeri wrote: post #3

So, of I understand this correctly, it's not the message they consider not to be free speech but the (inciting of) violence. I'm all for free speech, but for some messages there's just no context in which they ever become anything but harmful, and maybe dogmatically clinging to free speech isn't the best way to approach things. Then again, it can be a slippery slope towards thought police, so maybe it's best to leave…

maybe it's best to leave the judging of those messages to social pressure. I REALLY hope that that's a joke. Social pressures brought you ACTUAL Nazi Germany and ACTUAL Communist revolutions in multiple countries. Scary...

[deleted]
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