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ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

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Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#71

Post by CodeWriter23 »

cc81 wrote: post #57
gedy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'm referring to events such as the Berkeley Riots [1] where the violence was at least partly incited by Antifa. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#72

Post by patrickg_zill »

gkoberger wrote: post #13
gedy wrote: post #7

> We ... take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence. So does this apply to Antifa, BlackBloc, et al as well?

This post doesn't blacklist any specific organizations, but rather any case that involve violence. The ACLU will likely continue[1] to defend peaceful white supremacists. The ban will go for any situation or organization that involves violence. As for Antifa, I've been unable to find any videos/pictures/unbiased reports that Antifa started any of the violence this past weekend. I don't understand the need to equate t…

There were the tweets of an NYT reporter, Solberg or Stolberg I think. NYT is not very far to the right.

You could also look up the case of Berkeley antifa Eric Clanton, although he was not in Charlottesville- that would have violated the terms of his parole for the upcoming trial of his: 4 counts of assault with a deadly weapon at a previous rally in CA.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#73

Post by CodeWriter23 »

SwellJoe wrote: post #62
overflowstack wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples of right wing violence at modern day right wing protests that don't have counter protesters?

Why would you want white supremacist rallies to not be counter-protested? If there's a white supremacist rally going without protest anywhere in this country, I will be horribly disappointed in my fellow Americans. Nazis must be protested, everywhere they show their angry entitled faces. Sometimes they become violent when criticized. Violence is core to Nazi beliefs, so it's not surprising when they become violent. A…

If one wants their counter protest to be accepted at face value, maybe the organizers should institute a buffer zone. It seems like proximity foments violence, one way or the other.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#74

Post by boobsbr »

SwellJoe wrote: post #58
overflowstack wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism and hate speech are not indications of future violence. You can go to any internet space and find thousands of hateful and racist people. The chances of any of them committing violence is extremely low.

Right wing extremists are responsible for more terrorist attacks on US soil than any other group.

Source?

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#75

Post by SwellJoe »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #73
SwellJoe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want white supremacist rallies to not be counter-protested? If there's a white supremacist rally going without protest anywhere in this country, I will be horribly disappointed in my fellow Americans. Nazis must be protested, everywhere they show their angry entitled faces. Sometimes they become violent when criticized. Violence is core to Nazi beliefs, so it's not surprising when they become violent. A…

If one wants their counter protest to be accepted at face value, maybe the organizers should institute a buffer zone. It seems like proximity foments violence, one way or the other.

I think that's a reasonable approach, and there has been criticism of police (on "many sides") that police in Charlottesville didn't do enough to protect peaceful protestors. In this case, it seems that all of the serious injuries were inflicted by Neo-Nazis on peaceful counter-protesters, but there have been cases where antifa has inflicted injury, perhaps even without provocation.

Charlottesville police seemed underprepared for this event, in general. Many, many, reports from a wide variety of people noted a complete lack of police presence in a number of situations where violence occurred, or that police were present but merely observed violence taking place.

This leads to a lot of mistrust of police, and also makes it harder for protesters who might like to remain non-violent to do so. If you see someone being beaten up by Nazis and police aren't stopping it, the only decent thing for an able-bodied person to do is to try to stop it.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#76

Post by CodeWriter23 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #63
bloobloobloo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat. Curious to hear your position on waving Communist and Jewish flags.

Is Jewishness "an inherently violent ideology of ethnic cleansing"? For that matter, is Communism? Marxist-Leninist governments don't have a great track record, but there are plenty of individual pacifist hippie commies; the ideology of common ownership of production is not inherently violent and racist like Nazism and the Klan are.

I'm sure not all Jews condone the ethnic cleansing going on in the West Bank and Gaza. But I kinda think some people see the Israeli flag in the same light as Jews see the Nazi flag. And yes, I am speaking as a Jewish man.

You might want to check your Russian History, particularly Stalin's era, to examine the violence inherent to the ideology of common ownership, when applied Soviet style. Scholars debate on whether he killed 8 million or 60 million...

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#77

Post by PeanutCurry »

ece wrote: post #24
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #19

If they're using violence then they're already breaking the law, so it's not really a free speech question. This is he ACLU preparing itself not to defend these groups while trying not to loom publically like a hypocrite. Unfortunately free speech and constitutional rights are one of those things where you take the good with the bad.

Or they are just making their position clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action Trump is being sued for inciting violence as well: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudenc... Inciting violence should be a clear line, and I'm glad the ACLU of California is making it clear that it is. As far as past cases go, this doesn't seem to be contradictory or different, but I don't know if…

Without meaning to make any greater point, being sued isn't the same as being found guilty but is often treated as being 'close enough' in the media.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#78

Post by boobsbr »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #66

"White Supremacist Violence..." Obviously by definition. But this just begs the more important question: Does ACLU still believe speech by white supremacists should be permitted? I've heard a saying along the lines of: your rights only as good as you permit your worst enemy.

http://begthequestion.info/

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#79

Post by SwellJoe »

boobsbr wrote: post #74
SwellJoe wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right wing extremists are responsible for more terrorist attacks on US soil than any other group.

Source?

Here are a few:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us...

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil...

http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist...

http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#80

Post by pjc50 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #63
bloobloobloo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat. Curious to hear your position on waving Communist and Jewish flags.

Is Jewishness "an inherently violent ideology of ethnic cleansing"? For that matter, is Communism? Marxist-Leninist governments don't have a great track record, but there are plenty of individual pacifist hippie commies; the ideology of common ownership of production is not inherently violent and racist like Nazism and the Klan are.

The bar at King's College Cambridge used to have a hammer-and-sicle on the wall for years. If the authorities removed it the students would repaint it. All good clean fun.

It eventually got taken down for good after increasing numbers of students from eastern Europe came to the college and pointed out that, to them, it was just as oppressive a symbol as the swastika.

Really this all should have got sorted out around the time of the Spanish Civil War; actual capital-C Communism is too tied up in Stalinism to be trusted any more.

Of course, plenty of people are happy to label their enemies as "communist" for supporting basic reasonable non-Stalinist things like universal healthcare. So the fact that someone is labelled a communist by their enemies, especially in America, means almost nothing.

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