Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 1001 posts

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#401

Post by kelnos »

sk5t wrote: post #320
kelnos wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike the perfunctory "slippery slope" type argument. It's never an argument not to do something; it's merely a warning to make sure that you don't use an action as a stepping stone to taking more extreme actions. Saying that banning certain things is a slippery slope, and using that excuse to never ban things, means that it's ok to allow truly horrendous things to happen, just because of fear of overreach…

Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater is not generally recognized as political speech. At what point is it acceptable to ban unpopular political speech, provided that speech is not a direct incitement to riot/violence?

> At what point is it acceptable to ban unpopular political speech, provided that speech is not a direct incitement to riot/violence?

I'm not saying it _is_ acceptable to do that. But we are actually talking about political speech that incites people to violence, and I'm ok with banning that.

But -- we're not even talking about _that_ here. We're not talking about a government restricting speech, and we're not even talking about an essential, monopolistic company removing a party's only avenue to speech[1]. We're talking about a non-essential internet corporation (for which there are many alternatives!) deciding they don't want to help a hate group spread their message.

[1] If their single-option ISP cut them off, we'd probably be having a very different discussion.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#402

Post by genon »

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #394
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

>Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then. I get what you’re saying and agree with you, but please don’t compare gay people and neo-nazi. They’re not same or even similar.

If you get what I'm saying - comparing two well-known instances from different parts of the political spectrum where businesses try and refuse custom for ideological reasons - why are you pretending I'm comparing gay people to neo-Nazis?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#403

Post by taneq »

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #394
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

>Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then. I get what you’re saying and agree with you, but please don’t compare gay people and neo-nazi. They’re not same or even similar.

That was kind of the point. Non-discrimination, like free speech, is worthless if it only applies to things you approve of.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#404

Post by thanatropism »

sk5t wrote: post #320
kelnos wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike the perfunctory "slippery slope" type argument. It's never an argument not to do something; it's merely a warning to make sure that you don't use an action as a stepping stone to taking more extreme actions. Saying that banning certain things is a slippery slope, and using that excuse to never ban things, means that it's ok to allow truly horrendous things to happen, just because of fear of overreach…

Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater is not generally recognized as political speech. At what point is it acceptable to ban unpopular political speech, provided that speech is not a direct incitement to riot/violence?

Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...

"Shouting fire in a crowded theory" was actually put forth as a (succesful) argument for censorship of political speech.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#405

Post by backpropaganda »

ng12 wrote: post #382
jacquesm wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those not following this closely: Aurenheimer == weev.

Wow. Sometimes it feels like the internet is a very small place.

I might be too young to understand the significance. Could you tell us why Aurenheimer being weev is interesting?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#406

Post by throwawayjava »

Torgo wrote: post #70
nickbauman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be argued that the mere presence of a Nazi flag as expression is incitement. Not ordinary speech. Naziism is nothing if not clear about violence to people about things that they cannot change about themselves. Skin color. Lineage. It's not like "if you don't do this we have no problem with you" (the Antifa fall into this category. Nazis fall into the former).

Well, the Supreme Court and the law of the land disagrees with you.

Well, German law disagrees with you. (And cloudflare operates internationally.)

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#407

Post by davidreiss »

albertsun wrote: post #3

This section is troubling. > In a not-so-distant future, if we're not there already, it may be that if you're going to put content on the Internet you'll need to use a company with a giant network like Cloudflare, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, or Alibaba. For context, Cloudflare currently handles around 10% of Internet requests. Without a clear framework as a guide for content regulation, a small number of com…

We are going to have to have regulation to reign in these companies.

FB, GOOG, MSFT, etc all serve billions of people. FB's network has a 1 people more than china.

The pro-censorship crowd wants to distract with "government vs private company" argument but that really doesn't fly when these companies are larger, wealthier and more powerful than a handful of countries.

FB censorship would affect more people than the communist chinese censoring content in china. That is extremely dangerous.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#408

Post by njarboe »

PeanutCurry wrote: post #341

I'm obviously being a bit facetious when I say this, but are there really few things worse than nazis? I'm not expert on the subject of neo-nazis or the nazi movement, so maybe this seems more complex because of my position of ignorance. But none of the statistics seem to imply that nazis are more than simply intellectually repulsive and socially disgusting. That's not to say that nazi affiliated groups never commit…

Scott Alexander has a good article relating to this issue and Trump[1].

[1]http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#409

Post by backpropaganda »

jacquesm wrote: post #393
davidreiss wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and to be an unwilling vehicle for the Neo Nazi movement is something that no company should want to aspire to. Does that also apply to pornography? What about atheism? What about lgbt content? The concerted effort by the pro-censorship crowd to exploit nazis to promote censorship is rather worrying.

The concerted effort to equate Neo Nazis to pornographers, atheists and lgbt people is rather worrying as well. If you can't see the difference between those groups then the problem is on your end. Hint: Neo Nazis wish to return to the good old days of 1939 or so where Jews and people of color are either dead, outcast, deported, enslaved or stuck in camps while white men rule the land as is their god given right. So…

What about white nationalists or separatists? People who want a white ethnic country with restricted immigration. Are they outside our moral tolerance as well? AFAIU, a lot of these so-called Nazis are just white nationalists who want to assert their superiority, but not in a Hitler way.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#410

Post by [deleted] »

genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN