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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#81

Post by orclev »

bwb wrote: post #12
albertsun wrote: post #3

This section is troubling. > In a not-so-distant future, if we're not there already, it may be that if you're going to put content on the Internet you'll need to use a company with a giant network like Cloudflare, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, or Alibaba. For context, Cloudflare currently handles around 10% of Internet requests. Without a clear framework as a guide for content regulation, a small number of com…

That is kinda a BS statement, there are hundreds of thousands of web hosts out there in some form. I am not sure where he is getting such a BS statement.

His point is that with the amount of DDoS power available out there to various parties, without a major ISP or CDN hosting your content you can trivially be booted off the internet. Once you accept that as a given, if one of the major ISP or CDN networks won't host your content, then you're open to censorship from anyone who doesn't like your message, which if your controversial enough that the ISPs and CDNs won't host you it's probably a given that someone is going to want to DDoS you out of existence. To further complicate things, most small ISPs when faced with a substantial and prolonged DDoS of one of the clients, will terminate that client in order to preserve service to their other clients, which means once again if you aren't being fronted by a major ISP or CDN will likely mean you'll be hoping from ISP to ISP until eventually nobody will be willing to host your content.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#82

Post by [deleted] »

RandVal30142 wrote: post #37
toomuchtodo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If eastdakota said it, it's damning, regardless of the later PR scrubbing.

He also said this: >“I realized there was no way we were going to have that conversation with people calling us Nazis,” Prince said. “The Daily Stormer site was bragging on their bulletin boards about how Cloudflare was one of them and that is the opposite of everything we believe. That was the tipping point for me.”

[deleted]

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#83

Post by totony »

If you feel the need to make such a long post about it, perhaps it was a bad decision?

Perhaps a statement that you did not support them in their ideals would have suited both the situation and your minds.

I've always felt like Cloudflare was one of the better leading internet companies, especially because of their neutrality towards their customers.

This is kind of a downer.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#84

Post by MollyR »

breadbox wrote: post #80
jquery wrote: post #68

It seems pretty obvious that all this hand-wringing over a little known site called The Daily Stormer has raised its profile worldwide far beyond their wildest dreams. This is likely causing the opposite effect of what activists want.

If you honestly think that the rest of the world is only now hearing about the Daily Stormer, then you must have a very plush rock that you've been living under. I assure you that many, many others have not had that particular luxury.

I don't think that's fair. Some of us work very hard for a living or have kids. I just learned about the Daily Stormer, this weekend.

EDIT: on second thought, I wonder if this is what Daily Stormer wanted all along. They have raised their profile enormously now.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#85

Post by ringaroundthetx »

I hope a civil lawsuit advances this conversation much faster than the Cloudflare CEO can. Yes, speech and expression has consequences. The reactionary service provider likely faces consequences too.

A court could easily side with the "abhorrent neo-nazis" if DDOSing raises their bills and Cloudflare's adhoc policy was the culprit, no matter what arbitration clause was written in their contract, and put the damages on Cloudflare.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#86

Post by interstitial »

albertsun wrote: post #3

This section is troubling. > In a not-so-distant future, if we're not there already, it may be that if you're going to put content on the Internet you'll need to use a company with a giant network like Cloudflare, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, or Alibaba. For context, Cloudflare currently handles around 10% of Internet requests. Without a clear framework as a guide for content regulation, a small number of com…

I'm really confused, have all the grown-ups returned to HN? Suddenly after several years of self-congratulatory virtue-signalling, HN realizes that self-righteousness censorship is not risk-free, and has long-term consequences? I'm glad I started coming back to HN. Maybe the long recess from reason is over.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#87

Post by bnjms »

kazagistar wrote: post #65
r721 wrote: post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

So much for believing in "due process".

Much like free speech due process concerns citizens and their government rather than people and any public organization.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#88

Post by jquery »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #45
RandVal30142 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also said this: >“I realized there was no way we were going to have that conversation with people calling us Nazis,” Prince said. “The Daily Stormer site was bragging on their bulletin boards about how Cloudflare was one of them and that is the opposite of everything we believe. That was the tipping point for me.”

Don't try to market yourself as critical Internet infrastructure if you're going to throw your principals away because someone made you feel icky. The Pirate Bay and DDOS gangs are okay, but this was the line? The worlds gone sideways. Edit: I was proud of Cloudflare not turning them off after their domain was deregistered. Now, so disappointed. Freedom of speech is rarely the speech we agree with. Or even speech we…

> Freedom of speech is rarely the speech we agree with.

Speech that the majority agrees with has no need to be protected. Even North Korea will let you agree as much as you want with the party line.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#89

Post by nickbauman »

Torgo wrote: post #70
nickbauman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be argued that the mere presence of a Nazi flag as expression is incitement. Not ordinary speech. Naziism is nothing if not clear about violence to people about things that they cannot change about themselves. Skin color. Lineage. It's not like "if you don't do this we have no problem with you" (the Antifa fall into this category. Nazis fall into the former).

Well, the Supreme Court and the law of the land disagrees with you.

To be clear this is not my position. I'm not sure what I think on this subject. But this is the reason why Nazi symbols are illegal in some other countries.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#90

Post by ringaroundthetx »

r721 wrote: post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

Couldn't he face personal liability in a civil lawsuit for monetary damages? Like if Daily Stormtrooper's hosting costs go up in a DDOS
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