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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#171

Post by [deleted] »

jasode wrote: post #146
spathi_fwiffo wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).

>Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. At the hardware stores I visit like Lowes & Home Depot, I see vertical panel saws which is a different beast: https://www.google.com/search?q=powermatic+panel+saw&source=... The blade moves on tracks and the wood is stationary for cross cuts. Euro-style sliding table saw is the opposite of that. For rip cuts, yes, the operat…

[deleted]

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#172

Post by mrtron »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #55
analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

Tip buy a CNC router and throw the table saw out. Along with a bunch of other tools.

Interesting idea!

How much would I have to spend? What if I want to do some simple cutting? Trivial?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#173

Post by jasode »

rsync wrote: post #118
analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

"My hands never go anywhere near the blade." Isn't that what we all do, at all times ? Who is putting their hands/fingers near the sawblade ? It's actually quite simple to avoid if you have fences/blocks/SacrificalPieces ...

>Who is putting their hands/fingers near the sawblade ?

Most people don't deliberately place the hands dangerously close to the blade. Instead, it's an unforseen interaction with the wood and the blade. E.g. the hand holding down wood against the fence and is (supposedly safe distance of) 1 foot away from the blade but an unexpected kickback quickly pulls the hand into the blade before the operator can even react defensively. An experienced woodworker was demonstrating kickback using push blocks and thought he was safe but he almost got sliced by the blade.[1]

On can then say, install a riving knife to prevent kickback, etc... but that doesn't prevent an operator from reaching over the blade to grab a piece of waste. Whether fatigue or being in a hurry, he misjudges how his hand and the wood moves through space above the blade and boom, fingers get sliced. There are probably a 100 different ways to lose fingers on table saws.[2]

[1] almost amputated @ 2m30s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4&feature=youtu.be...

[2] http://www.sawaccidents.com/recently-added-accidents.htm

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#174

Post by spathi_fwiffo »

greedo wrote: post #164
spathi_fwiffo wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).

A tracksaw (Festool is a good brand) is a better alternative than most table saws, at least for cutting down sheet goods. Combine it with a chop saw and you've covered a lot of the use cases for a table saw.

So, it's a circular saw that can optionally ride on a long and straight metal track that clamps to your wood. I have rigged up things like that with 2x4s in the past.

Hadn't seen it as an actual product before, but much more convenient this way, which makes it more likely to get used. Not as advantageous as a table saw if you need to do a lot of identical cuts; but, seems like it would work well for the occasional need.

I might just replace my cheap/scary table saw with one of these the next time I build something. Thanks.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#175

Post by logfromblammo »

jessaustin wrote: post #76
joosters wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Which bits of the technology were infeasible prior to this?

2004 was a long time ago. Can we just assume for the sake of discussion that the state of the art in electronic devices was different then?

The theremin, a device for detecting fingers using capacitative coupling, was patented in 1928. It output an analog audio signal, where pitch indicated proximity of one hand, and volume indicated proximity of the other.

The children's game Operation used an effective means to detect when the game's forceps contact the metal chassis.

Can we assume that the difficult and novel part of the invention is not generating the sensor signal, but acting upon it quickly enough?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#176

Post by mohaine »

nsnick wrote: post #113
Bartweiss wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? Yes, they did. Both companies carried Bosch REAXX saws, which have injury detection sensors, and are advertised accordingly. ^edited to past tense because there's apparently an injunction banning US sales of REAXX. So they tried to, and the reason they don't is that the company advocating for this law won't…

Didn't sawstop offer to license the technology for something like 8%? It doesn't seem that unreasonable to get a license. I would agree with you if sawstop was trying to prevent anyone from selling a safety saw, but I don't think that is the case.

8% of revenue is HUGE. It would probably be the single biggest expense for each saw.

It also seems strange for that to be a percent instead of a fixed cost since the feature is the same for all models of a saw.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#177

Post by cr0sh »

The stupid thing is, this technology could be applied to more than just table saws; most woodshop machines are fairly dangerous if you don't keep your mind and eyes on things. The thing is, even experts can get lulled by "having done this 100 times before" - and a terrible accident happens.

There are tons of power tools, shop tools, and other machinery that could be made safer. Yes, it will cost money, and consumers may not want to pay it. But I know if I ever purchase a table saw, it's going to be one of SawStop's - because my fingers are part of my livelyhood as a software engineer, and worth the money, easily.

How it works is kinda neat, but it does have some limitations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop

Chief among them that if you want to use a dado blade system, it won't work. But for general crosscutting and such, not a bad piece of insurance.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#178

Post by mohaine »

joosters wrote: post #106
rasz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So many things seem obvious after they are explained but randyrand guessed (I assume correctly, its so obvious I didnt bother checking, googling now ... yep capacitive coupling) without prior explanation. This is one of those 'X, but on a smartphone' patents.

Are there other tools that detect fingers and stop heavy machinery instantly? Did they exist prior to sawstop? Just because someone can guess how an invention works doesn't mean it was obvious, you've also got the benefit of being told of the idea in the first place. It's an invention that saves over ten life-changing injuries a day, if it was so inherently obvious, why did no-one else think of it before? So many com…

The REAXX saw uses a completely different method to stop the blade so it is the electrical side of the patent that is being used to stop the only other example.

Also, the electrical side of the patent seems to be the most obvious.

Detecting touch on metal has been around for > 30 year. Seems like the obvious way to answer the question of how to tell if somebody is touching a metal blade.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#179

Post by jasode »

spathi_fwiffo wrote: post #174
greedo wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tracksaw (Festool is a good brand) is a better alternative than most table saws, at least for cutting down sheet goods. Combine it with a chop saw and you've covered a lot of the use cases for a table saw.

So, it's a circular saw that can optionally ride on a long and straight metal track that clamps to your wood. I have rigged up things like that with 2x4s in the past. Hadn't seen it as an actual product before, but much more convenient this way, which makes it more likely to get used. Not as advantageous as a table saw if you need to do a lot of identical cuts; but, seems like it would work well for the occasional ne…

>Not as advantageous as a table saw if you need to do a lot of identical cuts;

You can do repeated identical cuts if you buy extra accessories for the tracksaw.[1] (I assume we're talking about "repeated cuts" using stops instead of constantly re-measuring with a ruler.) The parallel guides work ok but it's a lot more work to set up and dynamically adjust widths than a table saw's sliding fence.

If you like to use table saws to cut dados, rabbets, and slots for box/drawer joints, a tracksaw isn't as useful for that. Might have to get a router for those cuts in addition to the miter saw when supplementing a tracksaw.

[1] example: http://www.festoolproducts.com/festool-57000023-parallel-gui...

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#180

Post by kashkhan »

cooper12 wrote: post #39
kashkhan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just make injury insurance mandatory for tools like this in institutions, and have lower premium for safe tools. Same could be done for guns.

Insurance is after the fact. Won't prevent you from losing your fingers.

insurance offers discount for car alarms and lo jack, and that drives purchase of those items.
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