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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#141

Post by spathi_fwiffo »

jasode wrote: post #116
rainforest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what's the difference between a European sliding saw and a table saw with a sled?

In the video[1], you can see the operator walking with the sled to rip a large panel. A cross cut sled on a traditional Powermatic/Delta/SawStop doesn't have the same capacity and the operator ends up standing in front of the saw and bending his hip to push the sled into the blade. The geometry of motion is different. With a sliding saw, you're mostly out of the line of fire of kickbacks. (The saw in the video is $40…

Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts.

But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#142

Post by neves »

cptskippy wrote: post #114
luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

I find the complacency argument to be flat. The Sawstop technology doesn't prevent injury, you still get nicked by the blade, it just dramatically reduces the severity of injury incurred. Additionally when the mechanism trips the break and blade are spend and must be replaced. So the motivation to be safe around the saw isn't negated, it's just driven by different factors. Instead of motivation coming from the fear o…

This is a really important point not made in the article:

> I find the complacency argument to be flat. The Sawstop technology doesn't prevent injury, you still get nicked by the blade, it just dramatically reduces the severity of injury incurred. Additionally when the mechanism trips the break and blade are spend and must be replaced.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#143

Post by [deleted] »

GuiA wrote: post #132
jsjohnst wrote: post #128

My question is this, what happens when cutting wet wood? Or wood that has nails in it? Did you just cost yourself $$$ by doing it?

Yes, it does not work with wet wood. You rarely want to cut wet wood though. As for wood with nails, you NEVER cut wood with nails in a workshop. Nails + metal blades = sparks, and woodshops, even with ventilation and vacuums,have wood dust everywhere on the floor, the air, etc. It'd be the surest way to start a fire.

[deleted]

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#144

Post by Asooka »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

Can't you just wear heavy gloves?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#145

Post by anthonybsd »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

You sound exactly like my uncle who is opposed to all modern car safety measures (seatbelts, ABS breaks, lane departure, blind spot radar, etc.) on the grounds that he doesn't want to get complacent while driving.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#146

Post by jasode »

spathi_fwiffo wrote: post #141
jasode wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the video[1], you can see the operator walking with the sled to rip a large panel. A cross cut sled on a traditional Powermatic/Delta/SawStop doesn't have the same capacity and the operator ends up standing in front of the saw and bending his hip to push the sled into the blade. The geometry of motion is different. With a sliding saw, you're mostly out of the line of fire of kickbacks. (The saw in the video is $40…

Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).

>Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts.

At the hardware stores I visit like Lowes & Home Depot, I see vertical panel saws which is a different beast: https://www.google.com/search?q=powermatic+panel+saw&source=...

The blade moves on tracks and the wood is stationary for cross cuts. Euro-style sliding table saw is the opposite of that.

For rip cuts, yes, the operator locks down the saw position and then pushes the wood through the blade. The issue with the vertical panel saw is that the top half of the rip cut wants to close the gap and bind the blade because of gravity. The horizontal surface of the the Euro slider doesn't have that issue.

>But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).

I would say make a stretch and pay $299 more to get the cheapest SawStop which is the $1299 portable jobsite saw: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/11697127655919696780

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#147

Post by emiliobumachar »

abfan1127 wrote: post #135

have you seen his price point? Nobody wants his tech because its crazy expensive. The brake isn't reusable, so you have to have a spare lying around so your project doesn't get delayed. I don't want it because proper safety keeps your fingers attached. Its not rocket science.

"The brake isn't reusable, so you have to have a spare lying around so your project doesn't get delayed."

Is the false positive rate non-trivial? Because losing a brake and saw only when otherwise someone would lose a finger seems like a great deal, even from a detached, purely economical perspective taking into account health care and disability costs.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#148

Post by deelowe »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

This is a weak argument. A better one is that the saw stop doesn't work for conductive materials including wet or pressure treated wood. For this reason they provide a bypass which turns the stop off. You can imagine how this plays out in a production environment where it's accidentally tripped a few times (hint: workers learn quickly about the bypass).

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#149

Post by reilly3000 »

jschwartzi wrote: post #138
abfan1127 wrote: post #135

have you seen his price point? Nobody wants his tech because its crazy expensive. The brake isn't reusable, so you have to have a spare lying around so your project doesn't get delayed. I don't want it because proper safety keeps your fingers attached. Its not rocket science.

Yeah, this article is completely ignorant of the fact that he's using the legal system to try to force manufacturers to buy his technology.

This. I feel we should all be wary of a for profit institution trying to manipulate the government to force adoption of their product, be it a small or very large business. What if Comcast was forcing a commercial internet safety product?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#150

Post by ryandrake »

mrob wrote: post #29
sumoboy wrote: post #8

If big companies won't adopt it, startup a company and build a better saw and people will buy it. Table saws are dangerous, I remember in high school having a piece of wood splinter and fly past my head hitting the ceiling. People don't seem to have problems buying safety with cars, I see it as just an industry full of cheap ass power tools that constantly need replacing. I'd buy such a saw just so when my dumb ass n…

>People don't seem to have problems buying safety with cars Compare the introduction of three-point seat-belts. These were legally required while they were still under patent, but unlike SawStop, Volvo shared their invention with other manufacturers for free. They didn't try to use regulatory capture to force people to pay them. https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-gb/media/pressreleases...

Yea, people don't have problems buying safety with cars because they are forced to. You can't buy a new car without a seatbelt or airbag (and other mandated features), even if you wanted to. If they instead were optional features that actually cost money, a sizable number of people would skip them.
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