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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#111

Post by sjs382 »

baumandm wrote: post #103
luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

Isn't this like saying you're not going to wear a seatbelt, because driving is still unsafe and you don't want to get complacent? I get what you're saying, but I would want to utilize as many safety precautions as possible, no matter what I'm doing.

I agree that it's a bad analogy, but I understand and agree somewhat with the parent's point.

You don't want to go from driving a vehicle where the consequences of a collision is "a $100 part replacement" to driving a vehicle where the cost of a collision is "possible death or serious bodily injury for 1 or more people".

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#112

Post by nsnick »

We can all be for consumer rights, but I can't understand how anyone runs a business with a table saw without retracting technology. It seems like insurance companies would require this because if you don't have it in your table saw, you are being negligent with your employees.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#113

Post by nsnick »

Bartweiss wrote: post #75
yladiz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone isn't quite accurate; do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? I also think that thinking this will remove consumer choice is inaccurate as well, because if this was mandatory it's not like current saw manufacturers would simply stop selling saws. My understanding is this product doesn't really change much over time, and while there might b…

> do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? Yes, they did. Both companies carried Bosch REAXX saws, which have injury detection sensors, and are advertised accordingly. ^edited to past tense because there's apparently an injunction banning US sales of REAXX. So they tried to, and the reason they don't is that the company advocating for this law won't…

Didn't sawstop offer to license the technology for something like 8%? It doesn't seem that unreasonable to get a license. I would agree with you if sawstop was trying to prevent anyone from selling a safety saw, but I don't think that is the case.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#114

Post by cptskippy »

luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

I find the complacency argument to be flat. The Sawstop technology doesn't prevent injury, you still get nicked by the blade, it just dramatically reduces the severity of injury incurred. Additionally when the mechanism trips the break and blade are spend and must be replaced.

So the motivation to be safe around the saw isn't negated, it's just driven by different factors. Instead of motivation coming from the fear of losing a part of your hand, it's coming from fear of getting nicked AND having to replace expensive parts of your saw AND the time loss from having to stop working.

Having a case and screen protector on your phone don't magically make it impervious and you don't suddenly starting handling it recklessly. Having seat belts and airbags in your car doesn't suddenly make you open to ramming your car into that asshole driving like a jerk in front of you. So why would no longer fearing losing your hand if you screw up make you more open to touching the spinning blade on your saw?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#115

Post by [deleted] »

sjs382 wrote: post #101
yladiz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say the patent issue was rendered unnecessary (maybe courts require safety tech but also require the patent to be allowed royalty free) -- how much would this add to the cost of the saws? If the patent was still valid and they had to license it, are you sure it would add $200? The tech seems simple enough that I have a hard time believing a $400-ish saw becomes $600 due to this.

The Reaxx is comparable (almost the same saw, just without the safety component) to the saw that I use (Bosch 4000-09) and IIRC it cost $1499 before the injunction, compared to the 4000-9's $600.

[deleted]

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#116

Post by jasode »

rainforest wrote: post #107
jasode wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. Human behavior is counterintuitive and maybe the situation would be worse. See excerpt: >Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, proves that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a convention…

Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what's the difference between a European sliding saw and a table saw with a sled?

In the video[1], you can see the operator walking with the sled to rip a large panel. A cross cut sled on a traditional Powermatic/Delta/SawStop doesn't have the same capacity and the operator ends up standing in front of the saw and bending his hip to push the sled into the blade. The geometry of motion is different. With a sliding saw, you're mostly out of the line of fire of kickbacks.

(The saw in the video is $40k but you can get used sliding saws for $5k which is about the price of a brand new SawStop Industrial saw.)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#117

Post by sjs382 »

yladiz wrote: post #110
sjs382 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Reaxx is comparable (almost the same saw, just without the safety component) to the saw that I use (Bosch 4000-09) and IIRC it cost $1499 before the injunction, compared to the 4000-9's $600.

Wow, that's a 250% increase... I feel like that price is due to pricing the research into it rather than the cost of the actual product itself. Ideally if the tech becomes mandatory it won't be a significant increase.

Ideally the price would be lower, yes.

I have a suspicion that the price increase is due to BOTH a need to recoup R&D and the perceived value of the "safe" saw.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#118

Post by rsync »

analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

"My hands never go anywhere near the blade."

Isn't that what we all do, at all times ?

Who is putting their hands/fingers near the sawblade ?

It's actually quite simple to avoid if you have fences/blocks/SacrificalPieces ...

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#119

Post by mikeash »

cptskippy wrote: post #114
luckydude wrote: post #95

My wife, when we were dating, bought me a Unisaw, one of the so-called dangerous saws. (She's also the woman who would say "I'm going out to get some milk, do you need more clamps? Woodworker joke, sorry :) I have no intention of getting a sawstop saw. Why? Because my shop is full of dangerous tools. My 1930's drillpress ripped some of my hair out, my 1940's metal lathe can take your arm off, my bandsaw is way more d…

I find the complacency argument to be flat. The Sawstop technology doesn't prevent injury, you still get nicked by the blade, it just dramatically reduces the severity of injury incurred. Additionally when the mechanism trips the break and blade are spend and must be replaced. So the motivation to be safe around the saw isn't negated, it's just driven by different factors. Instead of motivation coming from the fear o…

Furthermore, making it into a monetary loss might actually help people be more careful. Time and again I see people respond much better to "that will be expensive to fix if you break it" than to "that will maim or kill you."

My flying club's annual safety meeting always puts heavy emphasis on the time and money cost of breaking our equipment for this reason. It seems to work well.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#120

Post by mikeash »

jasode wrote: post #97
toomuchtodo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. 4000 people a year suffer from being mangled by a table saw. That's losing digits or an appendage (their entire hand). (NPR had a story about this a week or two ago) EDIT: Let's say, conservatively, each accident on average costs $100K i…

>Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. Human behavior is counterintuitive and maybe the situation would be worse. See excerpt: >Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, proves that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a convention…

The idea that we'd all be safer if we had a spike on our steering wheel is ludicrous. Traffic fatality rates have dropped dramatically over the past few decades, and much of that can be attributed to safety technology.

There is merit in the argument that people behave more dangerously in the presence of safety equipment. But there's no reason to think it's so extreme that it overwhelms the positive contribution of the safety technology.

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