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The Problem with F# Evangelism

thomasbandt.com

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Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#51

Post by srean »

phillipcarter wrote: post #17

I actually work on F# at Microsoft. I've had success and some failures when it comes to evangelizing F# through Microsoft (but mostly success if my measures are accurate). I strongly believe that it can be boiled down to one major thing: Programmers learn how to program with C-style languages. C, C++, Java, C#, JavaScript, Python (sorta) . . . they're all in the same family. People, especially while learning, associa…

At what point does big company politics become a drag rather than a lift ? F# is not Microsoft's important story in a way that Java was for Sun.

In such situations, I wonder if something that came into being organically and in the open (and helped on by a sugar daddy) has better chances/purchase.

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#52

Post by talyian »

systems wrote: post #28
systems wrote: post #24

I honestly don't think there much wrong or a problem with F# I do follow F# somehow, and compared to other languages .. it actually seem to have a very pragmatic and active community The F# community build a lot of interesting frameworks, suave, websharper, type providers ... to name a few I dont think, anything will look popular, when compared to Java , C# or Python .. but compare it to Haskell, Ocaml, Clojure.. Dar…

I will just make one criticism ... it is sadly somewhat awkward to install F# even on windows and they do need a good ide if you go to the F# .org site, installing F# without installing visual studio, is a 4 step process .. and when I tried it on windows 7 it just didnt work for me i eventually gave up and install visual studio on linux, thing seems better, but .. still missing a solid ide

The first class IDE for F# is VS Code + Ionide. The language service backend for F# is also very well supported for emacs.

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#53

Post by rjbwork »

brianberns wrote: post #37
rubber_duck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this, you can sell F# to C# developers - things like type providers for SQL checking their query strings in compile time and no extra build step to produce SQL type definitions vs monstrosities such as Entity Framework... if they've been burned by ORMs to drop to stuff like Dapper they'll love F# type providers. Immutable data is also becoming a common pattern even in C# but it's tedious as hell to wr…

C# developers in my shop loathe the SQL type provider because it requires them to have a compatible SQL Server database schema at build-time. The extra level of organization required is more than they can accept.

Does the F# SQL type provider integrate with the .sqlproj database projects that are in the solution, or do you have to have an actual running SQL database?

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#54

Post by pjmlp »

srean wrote: post #51
phillipcarter wrote: post #17

I actually work on F# at Microsoft. I've had success and some failures when it comes to evangelizing F# through Microsoft (but mostly success if my measures are accurate). I strongly believe that it can be boiled down to one major thing: Programmers learn how to program with C-style languages. C, C++, Java, C#, JavaScript, Python (sorta) . . . they're all in the same family. People, especially while learning, associa…

At what point does big company politics become a drag rather than a lift ? F# is not Microsoft's important story in a way that Java was for Sun. In such situations, I wonder if something that came into being organically and in the open (and helped on by a sugar daddy) has better chances/purchase.

Replacing the contents of my previous post regarding VS 15.3 support of F#.

"For long time .NET developers, a common question is "when will Visual Studio support F# .NET Core projects". We’re working hard to get this functionality ready, but unfortunately, we’re not quite happy enough with the quality in the 15.3 update to announce that it’s fully supported. While Visual Studio 2017 version 15.3 is able to open the new F# .NET Core projects, build, and debug them, IntelliSense does not yet work correctly"

From

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2017/08/14/f-and-net...

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#55

Post by skybrian »

zubspace wrote: post #34

Good post. I really hoped for some f# code after listing all those scenarios where c# fails. Anyway. I work in a c# shop with a large monolithic code base developed by a small team with lots of fluctuations over more than 10 years. I have no functional programming experience at all. I love c# because we actually try to keep the code as simple and linear as possible and only introduce complexity in certain areas if pe…

Presumably it wouldn't be with your current project (since it sounds well-maintained and doesn't need a rewrite) but when starting on some other, entirely unrelated project?

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#56

Post by phillipcarter »

pjmlp wrote: post #54
srean wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does big company politics become a drag rather than a lift ? F# is not Microsoft's important story in a way that Java was for Sun. In such situations, I wonder if something that came into being organically and in the open (and helped on by a sugar daddy) has better chances/purchase.

Replacing the contents of my previous post regarding VS 15.3 support of F#. "For long time .NET developers, a common question is "when will Visual Studio support F# .NET Core projects". We’re working hard to get this functionality ready, but unfortunately, we’re not quite happy enough with the quality in the 15.3 update to announce that it’s fully supported. While Visual Studio 2017 version 15.3 is able to open the n…

I'm sorry, but what you're saying is factually incorrect. Can you please update your comment so as not to spread misinformation?

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#57

Post by flavio81 »

phillipcarter wrote: post #17

I actually work on F# at Microsoft. I've had success and some failures when it comes to evangelizing F# through Microsoft (but mostly success if my measures are accurate). I strongly believe that it can be boiled down to one major thing: Programmers learn how to program with C-style languages. C, C++, Java, C#, JavaScript, Python (sorta) . . . they're all in the same family. People, especially while learning, associa…

> People, especially while learning, associate programming with specific constructs and idioms of C-style languages. It's incredibly difficult to break that barrier.

I'd say this is the main problem with the programming community at large, in 2017.

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#58

Post by 201708throw »

maxxxxx wrote: post #5

Good article. F# would find much better adoption if there were more FP style libraries out there. I have tried to move to F# but it's a real uphill battle when pretty much all sample code and most libraries are in C#. I would do it if I was alone but it's hard to convince a team of the benefits.

The problem is F# does not have a killer feature it has a list of nice features. Examples of killer features: Akka, RoR, browser monopoly.

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#59

Post by GiorgioG »

phillipcarter wrote: post #17

I actually work on F# at Microsoft. I've had success and some failures when it comes to evangelizing F# through Microsoft (but mostly success if my measures are accurate). I strongly believe that it can be boiled down to one major thing: Programmers learn how to program with C-style languages. C, C++, Java, C#, JavaScript, Python (sorta) . . . they're all in the same family. People, especially while learning, associa…

I'll get excited when the Visual Studio team actually holds up a release because something is horribly broken in its F# support. So basically...never.

Re: The Problem with F# Evangelism

#60

Post by pjmlp »

phillipcarter wrote: post #56
pjmlp wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing the contents of my previous post regarding VS 15.3 support of F#. "For long time .NET developers, a common question is "when will Visual Studio support F# .NET Core projects". We’re working hard to get this functionality ready, but unfortunately, we’re not quite happy enough with the quality in the 15.3 update to announce that it’s fully supported. While Visual Studio 2017 version 15.3 is able to open the n…

I'm sorry, but what you're saying is factually incorrect . Can you please update your comment so as not to spread misinformation?

Updated with the blog quote.
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