Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#951

Post by exelius » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

There are socially appropriate ways to start a discussion. Taking your concerns directly to a senior leader -- who can explain the other pieces that are being missed here, such as empathy for end-users -- provides a wider view of why diversity programs exist and why companies consider them critical to success.

If you want to build products exclusively for men, by all means, staff your teams with all men. But bringing a diversity of experience into all levels of a company makes that company's products and engagement experience better for everyone. This is especially true when you're talking about a consumer-focused product (like many of Google's products are).

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#952

Post by kelukelugames » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

jblow wrote: post #887

jblow wrote: post #885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's false and nasty. I was thinking the same thing ... quite objectively. There were at least two discussions that I thought were very reasonable, and they got flagged into oblivion very quickly. So I don't know why the YC link gets to be the exception. It feels wrong. Maybe it is due to the users, but if that is so, it feels wrong enough to give me a pretty big loss of faith in the dynamics of the com…

It occurs to me, maybe this is another instance of the left engaging in silencing tactics and maybe that is a weakness in the flagging algorithm. I can't vote "don't flag this". So if there are approximately two sides to a discussion, and one side wants to flag it to silence the discussion, then the discussion is going to get flagged no matter what. So the side that wants to silence just selectively silences the opin…

Interesting you say that Jonathan. As someone who you would identify as part of the left, I noticed the pro-diversity posts were always flagged. I assumed it was by the right or whatever group you identify with...or maybe people on HN want to avoid the shouting matches that always come with these topics.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#953

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #942

mentallimits wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

does this not provide support for Damore? Once Russian women had a greater choice of career opportunities in post-soviet russia STEM participation declined.

Absolutely not - Russian women had less choice following the collapse as the country's economy declined. The paper I cited does not claim that USSR had managed to transform an otherwise very prejudice society into an equal egalitarian one. Instead, soviets focused on full employment AND full Labor participation as part of ideology, leaving less room for contradictions such as gender discrimination on employment or ed…

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#954

Post by tchaffee » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:34 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #794

rayiner wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. I'm a huge proponent of the principle of charity, but I found it impossible to apply to the Google Memo. Not because I'm deeply mired in political correctness (I have a range of views peo…

So he was wrong. That doesn't make him the devil in disguise.

Sometimes if you are wrong enough and offend enough people you are guilty of violating a code of conduct. No one is sending him to hell or even jail. He just lost his job. We are not schoolboys. We are adults with a responsibility to follow the code of employee, or face the consequences.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#955

Post by tchaffee » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

Artistry121 wrote: post #424

michaelchisari wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be completely lost on a lot of HN people that Damore's memo was not very scientific at all for the subject matter he was tackling. It was written in a certain intellectual language that often provides a veneer of authority for those who agree with his conclusions and lack the domain knowledge to understand the nuances of why he's wrong. But a lot of these "bio-truth" type of arguments do the same thing. G…

>>All it would have taken was for him to run the essay past a couple of people with solid domain expertise, and they would have pointed out the dozens and dozens of problems with his assertions, reasoning and perspective. I don't think this squares with truth. There is at least one PH.D psychologist who mentioned the memo was generally correct.

> There is at least one

You can always find a quack. Science is largely about consensus, and the consensus is that Damore's memo doesn't even come close to science, even if it tries to be sciency.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#956

Post by alexmuro » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

just want to say thanks to all involved in this interview. This is exactly the kind of discussion that imho can change minds and move this issue forward. I have so much respect for these women.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#957

Post by nsnick » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #776

nsnick wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a debate worse than a discussion? We strive for debate on all other topics? If you actually want to challenge assumptions you must debate and evaluate the merits of someone else's argument. A discussion would just be you think x and I think y. A debate puts warrants behind the claims in those beliefs.

> Why is a debate worse than a discussion? Debate works really well in two situations: 1. All parties are experienced with debates and enjoy debates. In particular, they can partake in a debate and then, afterward, dispassionately evaluate the arc of the debate; OR 2. The setting is inherently adversarial and there is a third party who will ultimately decide the outcome. Almost all workplace conversations -- and inde…

You are actually trying to stifle debate on a topic you think is so self evident that it does not need any... and you are doing it by debating.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#958

Post by on_and_off » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:48 PM UTC

rainbowmverse wrote: post #946

Pigo wrote: post #935

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose this is the one point I always find myself pondering when these women in tech arguments arise, why is there no push to for women in the oil-manufacturing industry? How many women do we have working on oil rigs? It's a very well paying job with a lot of opportunity for people with less than stellar backgrounds, but trying to get their life on track. There are lots of jobs out there that are close to 100% mal…

I'm sure there's similar movements in other industries, and I'm sure there's someone in their forums saying something similar.

Any proof of that ?

Of course I only have a myopic point of view of the software industry but I don't hear the same noise from other industries

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#959

Post by tchaffee » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:51 PM UTC

MollyR wrote: post #478

Artistry121 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>All it would have taken was for him to run the essay past a couple of people with solid domain expertise, and they would have pointed out the dozens and dozens of problems with his assertions, reasoning and perspective. I don't think this squares with truth. There is at least one PH.D psychologist who mentioned the memo was generally correct.

Yep, many agree with him. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/01/gender-imbalances-are-m... http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/08/10/the-google-memo-what... http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-...

Your third source claims that there is evidence of gender gap being due to biological differences that result in different interests. But Damore also made the claim that there is a biological difference in ability. Your source strongly disagrees, saying that "gender differences in math/science ability, achievement, and performance are small or nil." So they agree with some of Damore's memo and were careful to point out that they disagree with his claim about ability. If Damore had been that careful, he might still have a job.

Your fourth source includes one of the scientists who Damore cited. David P Schmitt's take is that "using someone’s biological sex to essentialize an entire group of people’s personality would be like operating with an axe. Not precise enough to do much good, probably will cause a lot of harm."

Hardly "many agree with him". And it bears repeating over and over that cherry-picking science facts (or even the opinion of scientists who agree with you) is not science. It's the same exercise those who believe in chem trails engage in. Let's stop. If you want information about the population Google hires from, do research on that population not the general public. You would be studying the smartest of folks, who are likely to graduate from the elite universities of the world. Studies of biological differences in the general population might have little bearing on the specific population Google hires from.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#960

Post by rayiner » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

mentallimits wrote: post #891

sologoub wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an actual citation to prove the USSR anecdote as true: http://www.asee.org/public/conferences/20/papers/6985/downlo... > Since the Communist Revolution of 1917 and during the ensuring Soviet times, the role of women in engineering and engineering education was strong with almost 60% of the engineers being women. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russian women in these engineering careers has fallen to below…

does this not provide support for Damore? Once Russian women had a greater choice of career opportunities in post-soviet russia STEM participation declined.

The role of women in Russian society is very complex, but its not accurate to say that Russian women have more choices post-USSR. The best way to understand the situation is Soviet idealism against the reality of longstanding Russian patriarchy. The Soviets were at the forefront of encouraging women to enter the workforce, making abortion legal in 1920, making divorces easier, providing child care, etc. Those policies suffered fits and starts (Stalin rolled back abortion from 1936-1955) but were still in many ways far ahead of Western Europe. Post-USSR the idealistic stuff died out and there was a strong reversion to patriarchy (not to mention per-capita GDP dropped by half and only returned to peak Soviet levels in 2008).