Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#931

Post by peoplewindow » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 12:55 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #588

OzzyB wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you/anyone would like to watch an exceptional narrative based on this exact premise, you have to see The Hunt w/ Mads Mikkelsen [0] It really sums up this issue well and gave me lots to think about. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_(2012_film)

This was my first thought on the male childcare thing,too Could not make it past the first 30 minutes, felt so much empathy for Mads' situation and anger at the teacher/administrator for assuming guilt immediately. The fact that the director/writer gave us an omniscient view point with the sex acts happening in front of the child at home sort of forced one into Mads' corner right away.

Another example:

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/no-man-th...

No man 'in their right mind' would go into teaching, says geography teacher cleared of rape

Becoming a teacher is like buying a high-risk lottery ticket and solution is for men "only to teach boys", says Kato Harris

He believes that he would struggle to return to teaching, even if he had any intention to do so. “I can go back to teaching, on paper,” he said. “In reality, I won’t go back to teaching. Not only because I don’t think – with all the goodwill in the world – I don’t think any teaching recruiter would want to give me a job. Because, however innocent I am, I have baggage.”

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#932

Post by fred_is_fred » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 12:58 PM UTC

corndoge wrote: post #625

Frances: ...if I remain silent, that silence could be mistaken for agreement. I should not be forced into that kind of debate at work. And then Frances: ...I’m also disappointed that the men I know, including most of my male colleagues, remained silent on the topic. Frances: ...Many powerful men in Silicon Valley have huge bases of social media followers. By remaining silent on this topic or tweeting support for Damo…

I would love to offer my support against misogyny and harassment in technology but I'm frankly terrified of saying the wrong thing and being vilified for it. This is such a sensitive subject that saying nothing is safer than saying anything, even words of support.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#933

Post by tboyd47 » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:03 PM UTC

ryanbrunner wrote: post #52

hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

Exactly. People seem to get confused easily about what "discussion" means. Discussion requires real interaction between humans with different views.

It doesn't seem like Damore really tried to do that. His apparent goal with the "memo" was to change the policy of his company.

So much of philosophy is really just identity politics disguised as rational inquiry.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#934

Post by ZeroGravitas » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:04 PM UTC

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #925

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He uses high neuroticism as part of his argument against female software engineers, high neuroticism is associated with autism. So it seems that even he isn't being sensitive to his own neurological differences.

> He uses high neuroticism as part of his argument against female software engineers At no point did he argue "against female software engineers"

Apart from say the bit where he said women couldn't cope with stressful jobs as well as men and that's part of why they're underrepresented at Google i.e. the bit about neuroticism, that I was talking about.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#935

Post by Pigo » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:06 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #242

A common criticism by each four of the female engineers is how the memo effected them in their job and how they had to prove themselves afterward. This strongly reminds me of about a case a year ago when a kindergarten teacher was tried and charged for rape against several children. After a lot of media attention, many male teachers all over the nation reported to constantly having prove to parents and fellow female…

I suppose this is the one point I always find myself pondering when these women in tech arguments arise, why is there no push to for women in the oil-manufacturing industry? How many women do we have working on oil rigs? It's a very well paying job with a lot of opportunity for people with less than stellar backgrounds, but trying to get their life on track. There are lots of jobs out there that are close to 100% male, and some don't even require a lot of physical strength. Where is the outcry?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#936

Post by hacknat » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:07 PM UTC

PeanutCurry wrote: post #916

hacknat wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The memo suffered from a lack of 2nd order thinking. If Google really is using its diversity programs to "lower the bar", that's what should have been proven and addressed, whether men and women have innate differences in talent for certain occupations is irrelevant. It's Google's perogative/obligation to find and retain the best talent. I suspect that's what the purpose of their diversity programs are for. If they'r…

I don't see the correlation between diversity programs and retaining the best talent. Not because diversity isn't important, or because it's a negative thing, but because in general diversity programs function by more closely examining/attracting a subset of a larger total population of workers. You could still of course find the best talent within those subsets, but the implication is still that you could just as ea…

Why is it binary? I'm pretty sure you can focus on both. Also, it's not hard to get candidates that are non-diverse, almost by definition the status quo favors their hiring, hence the diversity programs.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#937

Post by evolve2017 » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:07 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #402

evolve2017 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

This is the type of resentment / thinking that he wants the company to steer away from. If they do encode 'lower bar' policies, it's an inevitable and rational conclusion to draw, which is incredibly toxic I agree. By taking other approaches to diversity at different stages in the funnel, that toxic inevitability is avoided.

I'm not sure how you're privvy to his thought process.

Also, the idea that finding ways to employ more women+minorities leads to poorer employees is exactly what many people don't after about - essentially, your argument is taking his opinion as fact, while I only wanted to point out the underlying message to his words.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#938

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:07 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #402

evolve2017 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

This is the type of resentment / thinking that he wants the company to steer away from. If they do encode 'lower bar' policies, it's an inevitable and rational conclusion to draw, which is incredibly toxic I agree. By taking other approaches to diversity at different stages in the funnel, that toxic inevitability is avoided.

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#939

Post by peoplewindow » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:12 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #927

peoplewindow wrote: post #904

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence the fact that so many people are sick of the racism card and voted for Trump. As you point out, the same behaviour would be called bad policy (and possibly illegal) if it's against blacks but not against whites. That seems fundamentally problematic.

Sometimes local bias can make things fairer overall. The difference is that something anti-black is obviously making things worse, while something anti-white might be helping or hurting in various ways. You have to be intentionally myopic to think all bias is equally unfair. Especially consider how racist you can make desegregation sound, even though it's giving everyone the same treatment: "They're going to start se…

You have to be intentionally myopic to think all bias is equally unfair

Intentionally myopic?

Why is the law intentionally myopic? I don't see any written law that says it's OK to be racist against white people? Are you saying the law should be changed?

Attitudes like this make me agree with the right-wingers who say that people who campaign against racism, sexism etc really just hate white men. A few years ago I wouldn't have agreed with that at all, but as time goes on and I see more attitudes like this, I feel more and more like it must be true.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#940

Post by evolve2017 » Wed, Aug 16, 2017, 1:13 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #379

evolve2017 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

>He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Yes, but that's simply how statistics work. If you require one group of people to score 90 on some test in order to be hired, and another group to score 80, then among success…

I think this is the fallacy of hiring that every startup makes, the idea that only Linus is good enough to write your CRUD app.

Incidentally, we do not know whether his statement is true, or whether the changes to Google's hiring practices have changed the employees' operational capability.

In the absence of this information, with such a clearly (if somewhat subtly) stated opinion, it's natural that one would be offended by his words.

Before accepting a statement like his, it would behoove us to know what the actual policy changes are.