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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#21

Post by pfranz »

inb4dangshitban wrote: post #6

From what I saw, the entire system is more or less single use, resulting in a destruction of the sawblade and the catch. As well as severe shock to the drive. I'm not one bit surprised there is serious opposition to the idea, capitalism and all

Well, you'd only lose your blade and cartridge if you would have otherwise cut yourself...so it sounds like a good trade. Yes, it does get triggered if you have a stray nail in your wood (bad idea) or if the wood is too wet. But from the little experience I have, it'd only be triggered by wood that's wetter than you'd want to cut in the first place.

SawStop is used at our community woodshop. I've seen it go off (someone touched by blade after they turned off the table saw, but before the blade at stopped spinning), but I haven't heard of it harming the table saw in any way.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#22

Post by pfranz »

WalterBright wrote: post #9
bluejekyll wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it greed exactly? Wouldn't the saws just cost more? I suppose the R&D on building the components into their current products is something they don't want to do, so maybe that's the greed aspect?

It adds $200 to the cost of a saw. You can buy sawstop saws on Amazon. The trouble as I see it is it's patented technology, and SawStop sues infringers. It would certainly be a jackpot for SawStop to get a law requiring their patented technology on every saw - look what happens to drug prices with patent monopolies. SawStop could easily impose a ruinous patent fee on competitors, and completely monopolize the saw bus…

Yeah, I think it's fair to debate now if it's worth making mandatory, but I don't have a strong opinion either way. I think he should be able to enforce his patent for the duration and after it expires there's a stronger argument for making it mandatory.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#24

Post by Super_Jambo »

pfranz wrote: post #21
inb4dangshitban wrote: post #6

From what I saw, the entire system is more or less single use, resulting in a destruction of the sawblade and the catch. As well as severe shock to the drive. I'm not one bit surprised there is serious opposition to the idea, capitalism and all

Well, you'd only lose your blade and cartridge if you would have otherwise cut yourself...so it sounds like a good trade. Yes, it does get triggered if you have a stray nail in your wood (bad idea) or if the wood is too wet. But from the little experience I have, it'd only be triggered by wood that's wetter than you'd want to cut in the first place. SawStop is used at our community woodshop. I've seen it go off (some…

Going to depend on the strength of the axle, also if saw stop are insisting on licensing the tech at 100$ a saw then people will be priced out of the market completely.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#25

Post by randyrand »

Ya, no. Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition), this will double the price of table saws. No thanks. Consumer protection laws are not about making obvious choices for me. Its supposed to protect me from the unknown unknowns - things that the average consumer would not know is dangerous. Everyone has heard about these safer saws for over a decade now. Everyone knows saws are dangerous. If people wanted them, they'd buy them. This law will not making these saws any cheaper or make saws any safer, it's just removing consumer choice.

This is a ban. This is not why we have consumer protection.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#26

Post by randyrand »

Sniffnoy wrote: post #19
antongribok wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just suing, they have an injunction and at the moment you can't buy a saw in the USA with Bosch's REAXX technology, which actually works quite differently than SawStop. Here are two videos where you can compare for yourself: SawStop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mzhvMgrLE Bosch REAXX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4heF0Y2-QYc Here's an article that talks about the lawsuit: https://www.protoolreviews.com/ne…

Clarification: If I'm understanding this right, the stopping the saw works differently, but the detection works the same.

So they are patenting capacitive sensing in the context of detecting a finger? you know, like a touchscreen? Wow. The USPO fucking sucks.

For the record, I don't even know how the sensing actually works in the saws. I'm just guessing because its fricken OBVIOUS.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#27

Post by raverbashing »

antongribok wrote: post #13
readams wrote: post #5

They don't mention if it's possible to build saws without sawstop patents. Is this guy lobbying for all saw companies to be required to license his technology? EDIT: It appears that they're currently suing Bosch for developing their own similar technology.

Not just suing, they have an injunction and at the moment you can't buy a saw in the USA with Bosch's REAXX technology, which actually works quite differently than SawStop. Here are two videos where you can compare for yourself: SawStop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mzhvMgrLE Bosch REAXX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4heF0Y2-QYc Here's an article that talks about the lawsuit: https://www.protoolreviews.com/ne…

It would be fun if Bosch countersued with some of their patents (but I guess most of table saw patents are expired now)

Yes, this seems like rent-seeking on SawStop so they can go and eat a sausage.

As a sibling comment said, detecting the finger is the obvious part (and there should be ample prior art)

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#28

Post by makomk »

birdman3131 wrote: post #15

As far as I know sawstop will trigger on wood that is lightly damp. And at ~$100 per occurrence it gets expensive fast ($70 for sawstop cartridge and 15-50 for a new blade.) Yes there is a bypass but you don't always know if the wood is too wet or not.

Bosch have a better system that doesn't destroy the blade or require the cartridge to be replaced every time because it merely retracts the blade very quickly into the bed, but SawStop are using their patents to stop Bosch from selling it. Apparently they went to the effort of patenting every possible approach that doesn't require the expensive but profitable single-use cartridge even though they have no intention of using them, just to stop competitors from doing it.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#29

Post by mrob »

sumoboy wrote: post #8

If big companies won't adopt it, startup a company and build a better saw and people will buy it. Table saws are dangerous, I remember in high school having a piece of wood splinter and fly past my head hitting the ceiling. People don't seem to have problems buying safety with cars, I see it as just an industry full of cheap ass power tools that constantly need replacing. I'd buy such a saw just so when my dumb ass n…

>People don't seem to have problems buying safety with cars

Compare the introduction of three-point seat-belts. These were legally required while they were still under patent, but unlike SawStop, Volvo shared their invention with other manufacturers for free. They didn't try to use regulatory capture to force people to pay them.

https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-gb/media/pressreleases...

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#30

Post by Latty »

randyrand wrote: post #25

Ya, no. Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition), this will double the price of table saws. No thanks. Consumer protection laws are not about making obvious choices for me. Its supposed to protect me from the unknown unknowns - things that the average consumer would not know is dangerous. Everyone has heard about these safer saws for over a decade now. Everyone knows saws are dangerous.…

What about employees or students who have to use the equipment? They can't force their employer or educator to spend the money, but it's their fingers that'll be lost.

Maybe laws to ensure that if you are employing or in any way requiring someone use your saw you need the safety features.

The patent stuff is it's own issue for sure, and yet another example of how crappy the system is.

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