To me, this helps to emphasize the importance of class in America. Rich kids go to Harvard, after graduating from wonderful high schools, helped by private tutors, and, most importantly, knowing that their wealth and their parents' connections will guarantee them success. But since America is supposedly the land of equal opportunity, those kids must put on a facade to the world, which tells other people a lie: I succeeded because I'm smart, not because I'm rich.
Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
111–120 of 185 posts
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a student, I agree with many of the words you said but for different reasons. I've had a middle school teacher who told us about her own sex life during class. I've had a high school teacher who droned on and on about her divorce (to the point that everyone learned so little, almost no one passed the AP exams she was supposed to prepare us for) and put down religions - again, during class. College isn't a whole lo…
Having been a student with good and bad teachers, I can see your point. However, many of the things that you are being taught (at least I hope this is still the case) that don't appear to be needed for the "job" are actually important because they are needed for the understanding of the background for why and how the "job". The failure of teachers that we faced as students was that the reasons for learning something…
We need to humanize our education systems. The concept that we all sit around in school for 20+ years and then go out and find something to do with all of that knowledge is based more on maintaining rigid financial/power structures than it is based on effective information discovery and utilization, and there's no reason that a useful piece of information recovered partially-intact from the caverns of memory here or there should continue to justify such a lumbering, monolithic system.
There are no guarantees that the system will provide even what you've enjoyed; as you said, a peer with similar education had either not been taught or had not remembered the needed concept.
Humans need it "on-demand". We learn and master a trade experimentally, most naturally in the context of an apprenticeship. We can't compartmentalize book learning and practical employment, putting years-long gaps between them, and expect the eviction algorithm in peoples' brains to have not pruned much of the relevant information. We need it cemented with immediate, meaningful, recurring experience, and we need systems that will make it easy for us to remember and reference as necessary.
The existing educational apparatus is none of this. It is just a cash cow for the banks and universities, enslaving most of its "graduates" to decades of debt servicing. That, IMO, is the primary reason it continues to be enforced, because there is very little that is rational about it.
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
They're not wrong to worry about that, it's a rough world out there and getting a good job is vastly more important to most people than "human development". Parents don't send their kids to college to become better people, they do it to make sure they have a skill that can lead to a career so they can survive on their own. Only the rich have the luxury of being concerned about something other than a job.
On the contrary. The less you have, the more you stand to benefit from appreciating other things than possessions.
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a student, I agree with many of the words you said but for different reasons. I've had a middle school teacher who told us about her own sex life during class. I've had a high school teacher who droned on and on about her divorce (to the point that everyone learned so little, almost no one passed the AP exams she was supposed to prepare us for) and put down religions - again, during class. College isn't a whole lo…
Having been a student with good and bad teachers, I can see your point. However, many of the things that you are being taught (at least I hope this is still the case) that don't appear to be needed for the "job" are actually important because they are needed for the understanding of the background for why and how the "job". The failure of teachers that we faced as students was that the reasons for learning something…
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#115Sending a troubled kid to a great private school probably will cause the kid to do better: because all the other students are doing well the bad students peers are working hard so the bad student sees that example and is likely to succumb to peer pressure and do better. For this to work the troubled kid needs to be kept out of the gangs and whatever else outside of school will lead to bad examples. However selection…
What about the non-troubled kids? How much of a negative effect can a few troubled kids have on non-troubled kids?
One kid acting out in a class can ruin the learning atmosphere for the entire class.
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#116Uh, look, guys who didn't like my post: If you read carefully and think a little, just a little, not much at all, just a very little, you will see that my post is about the only item, ray of light, for the concerns of the OP. Look, guys: How the heck to get the students with native ability, but otherwise disadvantaged, doing well? Well, as in the OP, that's tough. But, but, but, but, but, but, if we think a little, j…
However, the way you learn best doesn't have to be the way that is best for everyone else. See, when I took calculus in high school, I (1) Got the book. (2) Flipped through it in an afternoon. (3) Decided the exercises were too simple to bother. (4) Went to school where the teacher said the book was worthless and he wasn't going to use it. (5) Graduated high school with credit for freshman calculus due to an agreement with the local university. My point: if you are smart and have a good source of knowledge, it doesn't matter whether it's a book or a teacher, you're going to learn something.
Now, what happens to people who aren't smart, but try to do (1)-(2)-(3) anyway?
First they have to do (1) correctly. You mentioned there are plenty of old, good, cheap books available. I mentioned that the book I got was not good. (It wasn't old or cheap either.) Do you know of a place that aggregates recommendations for the right books to get?
Second, they have to do (2) correctly. Reading a book is simple, right? Except if it was written in by someone who knows their stuff, but doesn't really know which parts are hard, because they all seem equally easy. So the average high school student is going to get stuck on a sentence like "Obviously, a convex polytope in R^n is just a finite intersection of closed half spaces." because they have trouble remembering what all those words mean and where they were defined. Add to that that they might not yet be comfortable with intuitively manipulating the underlying concepts, despite doing the exercises.
(3), the exercises. Consistently high-quality exercises are hard to come by. (Again, if you have any recommendations ...) I have seen exercises that introduced a new concept just to be able to define the problem. I have seen exercises that included a hint for an intermediary step to the solution, except the hint could only be arrived at by a mistake in the correct derivation.
If a student gets stuck somewhere along the way of doing (1)-(3), what they need is someone who can find out what the student doesn't yet understand and then explain it to them. Essentially, a teacher. If you have the necessary perseverance, you can probably replace the teacher by trying other books until one has the right explanation to help you across the hurdle. Most students would probably still prefer a good teacher.
Ok, most teachers aren't actually good. But most books aren't actually good either. It all comes down to being able to select the right ones.
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#117Of course, that's a bad analogy, because average height isn't correlated with the amount of time teachers have to spend on OTHER kids, but average grades of the kids - is (inversely), so parents still prefer schools where other kids are as "smart" as possible, because that indirectly benefits their kids (more attention of teachers for their kid, higher expectations, peer pressure to perform, etc).
So - selection bias is one of the reasons kids do better, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also make teachers do better.
By the way, in my country (Poland) public universities are considered better, than the private ones (because of historical reasons, and the way free university education works). There's still selection bias (best students go to public universities and don't have to pay for education, so these universities have the best students and teachers, and the best results), but it's mostly unrelated to students' wealth (apart from extremes where kids don't have food or time to do homework in primary school, etc).
Do you still consider selection bias in education a bad thing, if it's only about results, not about your family, connections, wealth, etc.? It's easier to teach a group of people on similar skill level, than a group of people where a third is bored, a third is learning, and the rest don't get what's going on.
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#118A simple thought experiment. Consider bussing kids from 'good' places to bad and from 'bad' to good. See after how long their outcomes become equivalent. Do so at different grade levels to measure the convergence time versus age of displacement. And now for the actual experiment: how do you impactfully present such results? I assume no outcome. Just the existence of an outcome. I posit that priceless data would be wo…
Good kids grow up in a different environment. The consequences of not knowing to handle oneself around "bad" kids are very high. There is no doubt that on average "bad" kids are much bigger bullies with lower empathy.
The consequences of not knowing how to conduct oneself around good kids as a "bad" kid are much lower in severity. For the most part, the parents of good kids set limits to the aggression of their children. For example, the biggest social rejects at my upper middle class schools weren't ever really bullied. People pitied the complete rejects and most people thought anyone who would bully the rejects is a complete douchebag.
I can't imagine how the social rejects or even the normal nerdy kids at my high school would have fared at a "bad" school.
Then there is the minority immigrant issue. Segregation is good for certain minority groups that do not have the language skills and cultural knowledge to integrate into America. They segregate themselves into a separate community that can provide support for its members. Desegregating these communities and their children will have negative effects.
The children of these immigrants will have the worst time dealing with the "bad" kids because they may have stunted language skills and lack cultural knowledge and context to be able to effectively navigate bad situations.
And to get a better picture of the winners and losers:
- > 90% of African Americans are born in America (and presumably have parents, family and connections who know English and understand American culture).
- Spanish is ubiquitous in the USA and the Hispanic population is huge. Hispanic people have a much lower need to congregate into a community compared to other minorities.
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#119Parents, teachers, and students are so focused on "education" as a pedigree and job pipeline that if they don't see an immediate connection between a topic and a paycheck they're like "Who cares?! Why are you wasting my kid's time on that?" When the whole thing is an exercise in competitive pedigreeing, of course it's going to be gamed. If it were more about human development, we'd be focusing on the deltas instead,…
If you were scored based on delta, gaming it would be laughably easy. Just completely fail your first exam, and then steadily "improve" to your real skill level. That's basically incentivizing students to do what Intel does with processors :)
Re: Selection bias is the most powerful force in education
#120A while ago I read a review of a book called "The trouble with diversity" by Walter Benn Michaels. I was struck by his claim that universities serve to "launder privilege into qualifications". To me, this helps to emphasize the importance of class in America. Rich kids go to Harvard, after graduating from wonderful high schools, helped by private tutors, and, most importantly , knowing that their wealth and their par…