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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#831

Post by frik »

hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

Interesting is that all Google related news (in the last two weeks) got flagged/hidden ("it's the algorithm", "it's the user", blabla). And now HN had time to post their own opinion piece - this one stays.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#832

Post by ImSkeptical »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #52
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

I don't see what's wrong with an "evidence bomb" and I've never seen the complaint that someone's position had too much evidence behind it. If Damore had no evidence, he'd be dismissed as a misogynist with no evidence. When he presents evidence, you dismiss him as an evidence bomber.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#833

Post by sudojudo »

emsy wrote: post #578
kristianc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems an odd approach tbh. Many 'Skeptics' groups (Skeptic / Rationalist YouTube) online at least would agree with his reasoning. It strikes me as odd that he was seeking to take down an ideological echo chamber but published it initially in the echo chamber most likely to agree with him.

Scepticism is a methodology, not a political group. I think it just looks that way because the term has been kind of hijacked by anti-regressives.

> hijacked by anti-regressives

Would someone please explain what this means, wouldn't an anti-regressive be a progressive? If so, why not state it that way?

Also, I thought the term "skeptic" had been hijacked by conspiracy wackos. When I think of a classic skeptic, I look to James Randi and the like; critical thinkers who expose quackery. But, for the last 15-20 years, conspiracy theorists have taken the term over (e.g. vaccine/climate/GMO skeptics). I fall into the Randi group of skeptics, but I sure as hell don't describe myself using that word, for fear of being lumped in with the second lot.

Real skeptics tend to be progressive, conspiracy skeptics tend to be regressive.

Based on the spelling, I'll assume emsy is a Brit... maybe things are different over there, but Randi was always more popular in England than in the US. I'm missing something.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#834

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #481
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

> I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. I'm a huge proponent of the principle of charity, but I found it impossible to apply to the Google Memo. Not because I'm deeply mired in political correctness (I have a range of views peo…

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#835

Post by GreaterFool »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #52
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

I don't think anyone needs a special invitation to have a discussion! "Hey Alice/Bob, I read your memo and I disagree. here's my point of view...".

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#836

Post by 0xbear »

>> For example, students and professors I met in college >> that grew up in the USSR thought engineering was >> stereotypically women’s work

Um, no. I grew up in the USSR, too, and engineering never was stereotypically women's work. If anything, the enrollment of women in engineering programs was even more skewed than it is in the US today. We only had 2 women out of a cohort of roughly 40 people, and they barely managed to graduate. Ironically neither of the two works as an engineer, but then neither do most men from that cohort. Truth is, engineering is not actually the most lucrative occupation in today's Russia, so I can't blame women (or men for that matter) for not pursuing it.

Also, most people here probably don't know this, but Russian language is gendered, and the very word "инженер" is masculine, though it can be used unchanged to refer to women engineers. There is no special word form for female engineers.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#837

Post by meowface »

pvg wrote: post #282
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

Scott Alexander is used as an example of 'better venue' and 'less objectionable phrasing', which is different from 'good writing'.

Yes, but aside from that, he is a very good writer.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#838

Post by [deleted] »

rpiguy wrote: post #754
ianmiers wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people did though. See for example "Edith's" point in the linked article "Edith: There’s a difference between “let’s have a discussion” and “let me tell you what’s up, all you wrong people.”" To me, it's really hard not to imagine the author being the type of person who would have a "I'm an Atheist, debate me" shirt. It's written in that style. Beyond that I don't really know what to say. Technical discussions u…

Many people initially responded angrily because it was reported on by the media as an anti-diversity memo and purposely mischaracterized Damore's intentions. Also the versions initially published had all citations removed making it look like he was just pontificating.

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#839

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

I think the problem with tech is that many of us are arrogant pricks (let the down votes start) because of this fact we are facing a lot of politics at the workplace - all with the common source of a desire to dominate. More women might create a more healthy atmosphere at most places, but who cares. However this is unlikely to happen because many women are not attracted by a heavily male dominated work environment.

The argument that women are inherently bad at tech is not based on historical evidence - lots of women in early computing. Believe me it is very tough to debug a stack of punch cards, much tougher than what we have today...

Are HR practices and PC the right way to solve deep problems? I don't think so. Maybe discussions of this sort can move some people, but most people only seek and find confirmation for their own position...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#840

Post by fizwhiz »

1058 comments all descendents of hedgew's comment. First time I've ever seen something like that on HN.

Edit: FWIW, the best female engineers I've worked with were just as good as the males. But yes, distribution is a thing, and we see fewer female engineers compared to male engineers because of a pipeline problem. Lowering the hiring bar just to converge to an unrealistic and superficial hurts everyone. Maintain the hiring bar and address the pipeline issue by encouraging more women to get into this field.

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