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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#271

More likely your female teammates are creating a hostile work environment by being unable to handle minor ideological disagreement. Or even more likely, you have misinterpreted them and are unaware that they were not shaken or seriously disturbed in any way. Edit: edited to remove the personal attack while still keeping the meaning.

> Or even more likely, you don't understand women very well

Personal attacks will get your account banned on Hacker News, so please don't post like this again.

It also looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. That's an abuse of the site, and we ban accounts that do it, so please stop doing that. More on this if anyone wants it: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=...

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15022218 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not making any endorsement of the comment or of the science, since it isn't my field, but just relaying what he said. Perhaps this is an off-topic question, if you don't mind responding: why did you feel the need to emphasize this, after your initial sentence: > He stated on .... Thanks!

> why did you feel the need to emphasize this Not the author, but: The psychology research literature is mostly garbage.[0] It's surprising to me that through all this, hardly anyone has dug into the supposedly scientific papers behind Damore's claims. Ultimately they come down to a massive leap of faith that job aspirations of psychology-major undergraduates can be generalized to a somehow biologically-driven prefer…

There are plenty of articles that touch on this. https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/08/10/the-google-memo-what...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#273
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing we should spare factual discourse for the sake of someones subjective feelings?

In this case, it's not about "should factual discourse be allowed or not," that's a false dichotomy. It's whether the author of the memo knowingly took an approach to interpretation of the "facts" he selected that was actively harmful to his co-workers by creating a toxic and hostile work environment. I believe he did, and the parent you're responding to seems to as well, but they didn't say anything about "spar[ing]…

"by creating a toxic and hostile work environment" can only be defined as such by those within it. I could say anything was toxic and hostile for any subjective reasoning. And it becomes "true" by your definition if enough people agree with me?

I'm arguing that line of reasoning is not constructive, and the collective's agreed upon opinions should not act as a barrier for scientific discourse. (which is what the memo was asking for)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#274
post #6

I really enjoyed the well reasoned discussion. I think a lot more constructive dialog is happening now that people have calmed down. Of all the sentiments expressed in the article, I mainly disagree with the comment that Damore did the company harm. He posted his thoughts on an internal discussion board and someone else leaked this internal document to the press. The leaker did harm to Google not Damore. In fact, I t…

Everything you write at a company should be assumed may end up printed on the froom page of the NY Times.

I find it frustrating that this is being downvoted - this is about the most universal piece of advice to be given to anybody in any job that uses computers to communicate with each other. I literally just read this exact line in "The Hard Thing About Hard Things," a book recommended to me on this forum.

Those that are downvoting, why do you disagree that this statement is not relevant to the current discussion?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why did you feel the need to emphasize this Not the author, but: The psychology research literature is mostly garbage.[0] It's surprising to me that through all this, hardly anyone has dug into the supposedly scientific papers behind Damore's claims. Ultimately they come down to a massive leap of faith that job aspirations of psychology-major undergraduates can be generalized to a somehow biologically-driven prefer…

Your cited study is certainly not the only one that exists on the topic. See http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... .

It's completely unclear how any of that generalizes to a biologically driven human female preference for "people" vs "things."

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#276
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the women in the article addresses that very aptly: > Assuming that it’s true that women on average are more likely to have trait X, why should any woman have to overcome the additional barrier of proving that she’s not like other women, or that if she IS like other women, that the trait has no bearing on her job performance? Creating a stereotype generates distrust in the individuals that are part of the grou…

99% of humanity wouldn't get hired at Google, male or female. As long as the hiring bar is kept high enough, there's no reason for Google employees to especially distrust women over men.

And yet, this is my opinion, the software quality could be a lot better at google. For example google docs was broken in Firefox for over a day for me. Google Maps crashes on certain routes preventing me getting a route. Whatever they are doing isn't enough. Also the UX at google is a mess.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore. Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast thr…

> in as conciliatory manner as it could be written Strongly disagree. I think emphasis is a really big deal here. Here's a key line from the memo: > Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story. This runs right into the Jon Snow line, "everything before the word 'but' is horse____." It comes across that the author d…

Relevant to your John Snow callout:

https://www.economist.com/news/international/21726276-last-w...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#278
I find it interesting how much the memo is misinterpreted even by folks who have read it multiple times and have been pretty engaged in discussions about it. Example:

"He claimed that Google’s diversity efforts represent a lowering of the bar. Google has stated many times that its efforts involve focusing more resources on searching for candidates in minority groups rather than lowering the bar for these groups."

This is what he actually wrote:

"Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate"

I'll admit this is a surprisingly dense sentence. And the phrase "lowering the bar" is controversial for an obvious reason, so it was a really bad decision by Damore to combine such a phrase with such a dense line of reasoning. It's just a recipe for disaster.

Some things to note:

* The use of "effectively" here is critical and means that the bar is not directly lowered in interview or technical standards. Rather, it's lowered as a (potentially complex) side effect of other more indirect policies.

* That indirect policy is to decrease the false negative rate. This doesn't mean standards are actually lowered for minority candidates; rather, it means extra time and money are invested to make sure that a negative result is actually a negative result. This can cause the standards to be effectively lowered, because it means that extra time and money are not invested in non-minority candidates, who therefore must overcome a higher false negative rate -- and the easiest way to do that is to be so good that none of your interviewers might feel ambiguous about your abilities.

To state that second bullet point differently and in a way that totally avoids politics, if you imagine that the interview is producing a noisy estimate of your technical ability, and the noise is predominantly negative/subtractive, then the expected score of an accepted candidate is higher with the noise than without. But if you offer a second interview to candidates and let a candidate's final estimate be the greater of the two samples, then the negative noise is reduced (though not eliminated), which will lower the expectation (but NOT below the expected value you'd get by eliminating the noise entirely).

With this analysis in place, I think it's more helpful to rephrase it as effectively raising the bar for non-minority candidates rather than lowering it for minority candidates, though ideally I'd prefer to avoid any phrases about bars being lowered or raised in general.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#279
Are any of these engineers East Asian immigrants or Asian Americans? From my own circles both near and extended, it seems like there is a much more even split within especially East Asian H1Bs and to a less degree Asian Americans? This may be from my own experience of hearing Asian parents push children regardless of gender towards STEM.

It keeps leading me back to the idea that increased volition allows gender differences to propagate.

I've been trying very hard to find data for say H1Bs by race and by gender at Oracle. Any thoughts?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore. Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast thr…

It's entirely possible for an argument to be correct, but too narrowly focused. If you're saying "group X is inferior and and I can prove it mathematically", that's still wrong because those people don't have a choice about being a member of that group and still exist in society. Discriminating against them drags society down. It's a prisoners dilemma. If everybody hires fairly then the relative drag is spread across…

Or you can just move most of your operations to Asia or Eastern Europe where they don't have these western liberal ideological impediments to business. And Ironically provide a higher percentage of highly qualified Women in STEM professions.
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