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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#261

Post by sheepmullet »

Berobero wrote: post #181
spodek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote you mentioned results from the process he criticized, not his criticizing it.

This is not the case, strictly speaking. It instead results from people perceiving there to be a lower bar for diversity hires; whether or not it is rational to describe things in that manner based on empirical data or what not is ultimately inconsequential. In that context, it is entirely possible for a poorly formulated memo to cause this type of damage, and likewise entirely possible for this perception to be perp…

> In that context, it is entirely possible for a poorly formulated memo to cause this type of damage

It's also possible, and more likely, for an overreaction to a memo to cause this kind of damage.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#262

Post by joshuamorton »

jack9 wrote: post #215
joshuamorton wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2% (outliers) of the population does not invalidate the trends of the other 98% This is just wrong. This is a strawman. She said "complicate" not "invalidate". >Gorillas typically have black fur. So no gorilla can have white fur? Wat? What actions do you wish to take based on the fur color of gorillas? Damore didn't just reach scientific conclusions about differences in genders. He went further and suggested actions…

> She said "complicate" not "invalidate". That's true. However, the trends are not complicated by the outliers. Her statement was meant to throw trending into question and I overstated by taking a bad position (phrase-wise). > What actions do you wish to take based on the fur color of gorillas? Provide more shaded areas (canopy or artificial), of course. I'm not sure who this elaborate "analogy" (populations vs indiv…

> However, the trends are not complicated by the outliers.

Well, but, they are. A gender binary is a simplification. A full analysis would really need to take a look at things like trans and nonbinary people and how they interact with the trends. But such an analysis would be more complicated than the binary trends in the original document. That is, such trends are an imperfect model of reality, and to better match reality, one needs a more complex model.

>I'm not sure who this elaborate "analogy"

Nor am I, you're the one that felt the need to bring up Gorillas. I felt that was a bad analogy, and that by continuing it, it would reveal why it was bad.

It appears that it worked.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#263

Post by sol_remmy »

grey-area wrote: post #89
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. Advice Damore would have done well to heed when writing his essay. You should also note there are serious questions about its validity - this is not just a matter of tone or style. https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-...

> You should also note there are serious questions about its validity - this is not just a matter of tone or style.

Then why don't you summarize the article's points so people are free to give a rebuttal

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#264

Post by msla »

bjl wrote: post #180
Udik wrote: post #162

No. The memo says: "The same compassion for those seen as weak creates political correctness[11], which constrains discourse and is complacent to the extremely sensitive PC-authoritarians that use violence and shaming to advance their cause." So it's not that "leftists are violent", it's PC that's complacent to violent PC-authoritarians that use violence and shaming. A bit different. Again, I have the impression that…

He explicitly mentions 'cultural marxism', which is an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory from the 60s.

The concept and term "cultural marxism" has been grabbed by such a huge swath of people, most of whom have absolutely no idea it is or could be anti-Semitic (because you have to be pretty out there to associate Marxism with Jews to begin with), that claiming all or most uses of it are anti-Semitic is wrong.

There's just no way to paint that huge of a group with that brush unless you think it's so double-secret subconscious that the majority of the people using it don't even know they're anti-Semites.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#265

Post by CydeWeys »

mundo wrote: post #114
joe_the_user wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore. Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast thr…

That's a really inflammatory and totally inappropriate analogy. Downvoters, please cite which part of Damore's essay you think is comparable to overt racism. He explicitly said that he thinks women are capable, and should be hired.

I wonder why he only attempted to address biological sex, and not also other factors like race.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#266

Post by mpweiher »

Blackthorn wrote: post #177
rpiguy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thoughts of one twenty-something engineer posted to an internal message board (for these kinds of discussions I might add) does not create a hostile workplace or harm Google in any way. Basically, in any other context we expect people who have vastly differing views to be able to put them aside and work together. The only exception to this rule seems to be around leftist issues, where if you disagree you are out…

> The thoughts of one twenty-something engineer posted to an internal message board (for these kinds of discussions I might add) does not create a hostile workplace or harm Google in any way. Considering how all sixteen of my female teammates were pissed off about it, I'm going to go ahead and say you are demonstrably wrong.

Nope.

Someone taking offense is not demonstration of anything, other than someone taking offense.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#267

Post by exergy »

jake-low wrote: post #191
nicolashahn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…

This is addressed in TFA. > [W]hen I go to work, I go to work, and not to a debate club. Some people at Google reacted by saying “well if he’s so wrong, then why not refute him,” but that requires spending a significant amount of time building an argument against the claims in his document. On the other hand, if I remain silent, that silence could be mistaken for agreement. I should not be forced into that kind of de…

I sympathise with the woman saying she'd much rather just focus on code rather than social justice debates. But, as flippant as it is for a guy to say it, it's their cross to bear isnt it? Women in tech. Because, if they don't speak up, then what? Where does that leave us? Should the "other side" also not speak up? Just focus on code? Should they suppress real emotions that they're feeling?

I'm not flaming, just wondering what the best-case way forward would be that mollifies both sides.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#268

Post by mastazi »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #60
hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness. You are completely right, but on the other hand if you are going to invoke "science" and you present your writing as scientific (he did), you have a higher bar. If you fail to be objective…

> then you've failed as a writer of scientific content

Had he been fired from a research position, I would see your point.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#269

Post by Sir_Substance »

Blackthorn wrote: post #156
nicolashahn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…

> Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). This was addressed in the article. This burden has fallen on w…

>This burden has fallen on women since they were teenagers. To expect them to do it yet again, to have to defend themselves at work this time, is ridiculous.

You know what's ridiculous? Expecting people to magically agree with you because you're tired of arguing your position.

Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in that world, but we don't[1]. In a society where all people are equal (which is what we are aiming for, even if the debate rages on whether that's what we have), all opinions are also equal. The tipping force on the scale of debate is tangible evidence, and it's the lifelong struggle of anyone with political opinions to continually remind others of the evidence behind their standpoint.

Feel free to not bother and stuff if you're a bit tired or bored or whatever, but be aware that from a third party perspective, there's no visible difference between someone who won't provide evidence and someone who can't.

[1] edit: I thought about this for a few seconds and have decided this would be a horrible world

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#270

Post by humanrebar »

epberry wrote: post #127
jccalhoun wrote: post #38

I think this is one of the better responses I've seen This line really struck me as being spot on: >There’s a difference between “let’s have a discussion” and “let me tell you what’s up, all you wrong people.”

Absolutely. This and the suggestion that he phrase his ideas as questions and more openly invite discussion helped me put into words my own discomfort with the memo. Of course the conclusion he draws that because of biological differences women are less suited to software engineering work remains the biggest problem.

I've tried asking evenhanded questions in the past (on other topics). They usually get corporate-speak responses that don't really say anything.

Pointed questions provide more information at the expense of goodwill.

What I'm saying is that I think people ask these kinds of questions and don't get honest answers. At least the firing of Damore was a concrete answer, though it was a partial one.

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