I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#401

Post by nodamage » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:23 AM UTC

canoebuilder wrote: post #388

okreallywtf wrote: post #236

I see some good points on both sides of the discussion here but one thing occurs to me about the current diversity-pushback that I'm seeing(I'm not going to call it anti-diversity because I think a fair amount of it is well-meaning or at least not explicitly hateful). We've surprisingly quickly moved from periods where it was common to simply refuse to even consider minorities or women in many fields to a time when m…

The key point of the Damore memo that many would do well to understand, it does not logically follow to say, "I've identified this "gap," therefore this "gap" is bad and it is caused by the big bad mean oppressive bullies, group X." So, is the identified "gap" really that bad? No, not really, not much reason to think it's bad at all in many cases. Second, and most importantly, not only is the purported cause of big b…

> it does not logically follow to say, "I've identified this "gap," therefore this "gap" is bad and it is caused by the big bad mean oppressive bullies, group X.

This is a misrepresentation of the opposing viewpoint. No, the mere existence of a gender gap in an industry is not ipso facto evidence of sexism in that industry. After all, gender ratios in different industries vary widely, some industries have a higher ratio of women and others have a higher ratio of men. There mere existence of an imbalanced gender ratio in an industry, is not, in and of itself, problematic.

With that said, if you look at the tech industry, the constant stream of reports* of sexual harassment and sexist treatment from women that actually work in the industry is a pretty big clue that this industry, maybe, just maybe, has a problem with the way it treats women. And if you consider that female participation in the tech industry grew until the mid 80s where it peaked and has been going downhill ever since, it's difficult to conclude that the gender gap merely comes down to men and women having different interests.

So, no, the gender gap itself is not the problem. But it might be a symptom: if women feel like they are treated poorly in this industry, they are going to leave. Not because of lack of interest, or biological disposition, but because they do not feel welcome and are driven away due to the treatment they receive. And if that is causing the gender ratio in the industry to be lower than it would otherwise be, then that is problematic.

* Notable examples include but are not limited to:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/technology/women-entrepre...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/business/uber-sexual-hara...

https://techcrunch.com/2014/03/15/julie-ann-horvath-describe...

https://www.recode.net/2016/1/11/11588656/60-percent-of-seni...

http://observer.com/2017/06/justin-caldbeck-binary-capital-s...

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#402

Post by unityByFreedom » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:49 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #398

unityByFreedom wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were these rates very different before women worked, or before they voted? I have a feeling men have always made up a significant portion of the prison population. This isn't a zero-sum game. Helping women get placement in the workplace doesn't mean men won't get jobs. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we will stop supporting young men stay out of prison. The idea is that as we become a more inclusive society we ca…

I don't disagree with anything you write here. I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values. To re-use the analogy from one of the parent[1] comments in this chain, if societal advancement is a non-competitive game of basketball it's not a zero sum game, just as you say. One group's advancement d…

> I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values.

> one person can see that one group is behind compared to another while a different person sees the opposite

Okay, I see.

I thought, when you started talking about men in prison, that you were tacitly supporting leereeves' statement that young men are disadvantaged compared to young women.

In fact, you just wanted to say that people's perceptions of "advantage" are subjective; therefore, one person could easily view men as advantaged in today's society, while another views women as advantaged.

To that, I would say, duh =). We're here debating how men and women experience the world in order to both present our own knowledge, and hear about others'. This helps us shape our future values by including more data than we have directly observed ourselves.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#403

Post by Infinitesimus » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 10:24 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #294

Infinitesimus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase typically refers to what happens before the hiring stage. Think kids that don't have role models of their gender/ethnicity. Think kids that are placed in gendered roles without respect for their own interests ("oh you're a buy, let me get you the trucks and computer programing skills. I'll get your sister the art books instead"). It extends to school programs, funding, etc. and is certainly a complex issue…

Think kids that don't have role models of their gender/ethnicity It's funny, because I am an ethnic minority. I mean that almost literally; outside of my family I have met exactly one person of my same ethnicity. If I had been waiting for a role model I would still be waiting. So my lived experience means I am pretty skeptical of the need for one's role model to match one's skin colour (or anything else). Incase it m…

I'm not saying everyone needs one. I happen to be a minority similar to you and I grew up without seeking a role model that looked like me.

As time has passed and I've encountered more people from all walks of life, I have started to see that for some people, it is _really_ important to see someone "like them" in a role they never thought they could fill.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#404

Post by Infinitesimus » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 10:29 AM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #186

Infinitesimus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase typically refers to what happens before the hiring stage. Think kids that don't have role models of their gender/ethnicity. Think kids that are placed in gendered roles without respect for their own interests ("oh you're a buy, let me get you the trucks and computer programing skills. I'll get your sister the art books instead"). It extends to school programs, funding, etc. and is certainly a complex issue…

>The phrase comes up because the common conversation about diversity is focused on 50-50 splits in hires I'm not sure that's true. >and that is dangerous if we do not accept that there isn't a 50-50 split in qualified supply in the first place. Except it's not dangerous at all? What I specifically don't like about this article and your focus on outcome vs. opportunity is that it draws this bright line where none exis…

> Except it's not dangerous at all? What I specifically don't like about this article and your focus on outcome vs. opportunity is that it draws this bright line where none exists.

Apologies then, I am not trying to focus on a line. It is constant effort to seek, identify and pursue opportunities. I agree that "Outcome vs opportunity" is a nuanced topic and one that will take forever if we try to draw lines.

> It's never easy, we're never at "outcome", we're always at "opportunity", hire some damn women.

Agreed. But "hire some damn women" is the very thing she set out to do and then realized that it is much easier said than done when you don't have many women applying.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#405

Post by pbhjpbhj » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 10:38 AM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #267

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no evidence linking, for example, testosterone levels to bone and muscle mass? Or progesterone levels to compassion and nurturing desires? I think you need to look a little harder. Of course more complex skills/desires/abilities are going to have more complex biological causation; though if you can prove otherwise, go ahead.

The only biological causation here is that people with penises oppress those without. You can't explain human behavior purely in biological terms because they aren't biological systems, they're social.

If your contention is true here doesn't it refute the forget argument entirely? If only males (the ones with penises) subjugate others then there must be strong sex related differences in people, no.

On the other hand of it was just as hominem ...

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#406

Post by pbhjpbhj » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 10:44 AM UTC

smokeyj wrote: post #352

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of course is impossible because the sex of the person who uses/states an argument is the most substantive part, nothing else matters. Thus dismissing a person's argument based only on their sex is just right. /s Calling someone's comment "mansplaining" is the mirror image of asking to see "the man in charge"; it's dismissal based on the sex of the person being addressed.

Here we have a straight white male telling a woman she's wrong about her experience. I don't subscribe to identity politics, but if you do - there's a fishy smell here. Of course the logical thing is to evaluate all ideas for their merit. But that's not what we're doing here.

Can't we address it like "here's a person telling a person they're wrong about the inferences they're making based on their reported experiences" and attack anything substantive rather than getting hung up on the sex of each person?

I thought that was what we were trying to do here.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#407

Post by HeavyStorm » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 11:42 AM UTC

imron wrote: post #385

rbanffy wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once you're listening to real voices, Use a voice scrambler.

People have tried that... specifically to show that women were being discriminated against, but guess what happened when it was implemented? They found that contrary to their initial hypothesis, women with voices modulated to sound like men were still not getting hired at the same rate as the men masked to sound like women. Not only that, but they found women modulated to sound like men did worse than unmodulated wom…

One very interesting finding of the study is that woman and men are faring equally once the attrition is removed.

It seemed to me that the natural conclusion was that woman have lower confidence and thus performed worse at interviews.

And this is a deep realization for me, because it pushes me in the direction of current diversity policies. You see, if there is perceived bias against you, then you lose confidence. So we must, for a while, try our best to remove that perfection. That might mean hiring more woman even if they don't seem to perform as well as men, because, once we have done that for a while, woman will feel more confident and the good candidates will appear.

In any case - whether my last paragraph makes sense or not - the conclusion of the experiment interviewing.io did is that only removing gender perception during the interview process isn't enough, for woman may already have been affected by the bias and thus will perform worse than men during the interview.

So we come back to the conclusion that we must invest to bring woman to tech early - during college or even high school - and fight biases there.

It's a long road anyway, isn't it?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#408

Post by xiaoma » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 11:51 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #366

leereeves wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak about Canada, but in the US, personal anecdotes aside, 60% of college graduates are women. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/12/11/... And young women earn more than young men, on average. http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274... I'm sorry about what happened to your sister, but that's not the norm.

> I can't speak about Canada, but in the US, personal anecdotes aside, 60% of college graduates are women. The gender gaps under discussion are specific to computer science [1]. That more and more women have been (a) going to college and (b) getting into STEM with the exception of computer science is why this is so interesting to debate. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

The gap is very relevant. There are literally hundreds of thousands more young men without degrees joining the labor market and few professions other than military, software and sales remain promising routes to a middle class life in the US for someone without a degree.

Many thousands of men without degrees are turning to software as the best hope for their future (and possibly that of their families). How could this possibly not have an effect on the composition of applicant pools for software positions?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#409

Post by zimpenfish » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 12:21 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #203

microcolonel wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear you when you say,"the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions". It just sounds like an HR platitude. If you know how to do that, I actually think you have a multi-$B idea! Unless you mean "cultural fit", or "went to the same school I did" as the best person, I'm doubtful you have one though. I've done enough interviewing and worked with enough people to know tha…

> The only reason not to do blind hiring is if it produces results which are indistinguishable from standard hiring. Or the fact that it's not really possible. Right now, most software engineering jobs are pretty communication heavy. Almost all company cultures contain a non-trivial amount of verbal communication, so with that premise, it's reasonable to have candidates verbally describe technical things or even make…

> The famous study involving auditions for positions in an orchestra

And even there they had to put carpet down / remove shoes to hide the difference in shoe sounds when they walked to the performance area.

https://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/...

"the telltale sounds of a woman's shoes allegedly influenced some jury members such that aspiring musicians were instructed to remove their footwear"

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#410

Post by hnnsj » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 12:37 PM UTC

averagewall wrote: post #374

hnnsj wrote: post #199

Yes, yes, yes. You have to go to the root of the problem. It's impossible to solve the problem by (only) changing the recruitment processes. It starts way earlier than that. You can't expect to have the current gender distribution in education and job applications that we have today and then expect the numbers to magically even out in recruitment no matter what policies the companies have. It basically doesn't matter…

Why does it need to change? Maybe both men and women are happy in their common jobs? Whatever the reason, nurses seem to choose nursing and programmers choose programming so they all get what they want. There may be a sub-minority of women who want to be programmers but are discriminated out of it. That's not good but it's surely a tiny fraction of humans. Not worth changing everyone else's job for.

Do everyone seem to be fine with it? Why do we have these massive discussions about economic and work equality, then? Obviously a lot of people think it's a major problem. I think there's clear evidence for that. It's just that, in my opinion, most people are not really prepared to do what needs to be done to change, they'd rather just try in vain to treat the negative symptoms.