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Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

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Re: Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

#11

Post by yorwba »

trolliloquy wrote: post #2

Damore said higher proportion of men in engineering positions wasn't because of explicit discrimination. And we know Google fired him afterwards stating he was wrong. But All 25 Finalists In Its Code Jam Coding Competition are Men. In fact, With the exception of 2011, in 14 years of Code Jam, no Female has ever made it to the finals. Google's own non-discriminatory machine tool that evaluates codes, which doesn't tak…

It could very well be the case that the higher proportion of men in engineering positions is mostly because of discrimination, while the increase in the proportion of men among finalists in the Code Jam competition isn't. (Not claiming that is the case, just highlighting the possibility.)

How? Assume for the sake of argument that discrimination is the only factor influencing the gender distribution among CS professionals. From kindergarten onwards the numbers are slowly winnowed down to 80% men and 20% women.

But now this 80/20 population enters a highly selective but objective contest and comes out with 349/1 (assuming there have always been 25 finalists in the 14 years of the competition and there was only this one woman I can't see in the photo proof). Surely this means that men are just better at programming?

But in fact men are just better at being outliers. The effect is not very strong at small deviations (i.e. the difference between an average person and an average programmer), but can absolutely become significant when you only look at the extreme ends of the distribution. (I have written a comment about that here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997524) When you only look at the 25 top performers, that is bound to influence the result.

Again, I don't think things are nearly so black-and-white, but pointing at one extreme case of men performing better wouldn't be enough to completely validate Damore's memo, if anyone were so stupid to make that argument.

Re: Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

#12

Post by zimpenfish »

yorwba wrote: post #11
trolliloquy wrote: post #2

Damore said higher proportion of men in engineering positions wasn't because of explicit discrimination. And we know Google fired him afterwards stating he was wrong. But All 25 Finalists In Its Code Jam Coding Competition are Men. In fact, With the exception of 2011, in 14 years of Code Jam, no Female has ever made it to the finals. Google's own non-discriminatory machine tool that evaluates codes, which doesn't tak…

It could very well be the case that the higher proportion of men in engineering positions is mostly because of discrimination, while the increase in the proportion of men among finalists in the Code Jam competition isn't . (Not claiming that is the case, just highlighting the possibility.) How? Assume for the sake of argument that discrimination is the only factor influencing the gender distribution among CS professi…

Also possible that fewer women than the 20% would suggest are going to enter a public contest which may well lead to harassment (if the experience of literally any prominent woman in tech on the internet is any guide.)

Re: Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

#13

Post by peoplewindow »

Udik wrote: post #6
peoplewindow wrote: post #4

This story so neatly sums up the debate. Here's Google's cunning solution to their problem: http://valleywag.gawker.com/google-drops-i-o-ticket-prices-f... Not only making a version of the competition where males are excluded (lowering the bar) but also tying it to financial rewards that men are not eligible for (free Google IO tickets with travel). This is Google's problem in a nutshell. When one step removed from t…

I'm not much concerned about the sexism against men- others even argued that Google doesn't try to fill a finite set of positions, they basically hire whoever passes the bar. However, I'm very concerned about ideological denial of reality, in any field and every form. It's scary to realise that people can basically convince themselves to see anything they want, to the point of deeming any other view as unacceptable,…

I think the argument you cite is a good example of the ideologically driven denial of reality.

Google does not have and has never had infinite headcount. Even at times when Google's revenue was way ahead of its ability to spend it, there was always a limit looming somewhere in the future.

What's more, the bar is not an objective thing. Companies that find themselves the belle of the ball can raise their bar until the numbers who are passing match the companies ability to absorb them. Google is notorious for this; lots of people there who are overqualified for the work they're doing.

So it isn't possible to tip the hiring pipeline towards women without causing men to lose out. It might not seem like that at the time when it's go go go, but eventually, headcount limits appear.

Re: Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

#15

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

Udik wrote: post #6
peoplewindow wrote: post #4

This story so neatly sums up the debate. Here's Google's cunning solution to their problem: http://valleywag.gawker.com/google-drops-i-o-ticket-prices-f... Not only making a version of the competition where males are excluded (lowering the bar) but also tying it to financial rewards that men are not eligible for (free Google IO tickets with travel). This is Google's problem in a nutshell. When one step removed from t…

I'm not much concerned about the sexism against men- others even argued that Google doesn't try to fill a finite set of positions, they basically hire whoever passes the bar. However, I'm very concerned about ideological denial of reality, in any field and every form. It's scary to realise that people can basically convince themselves to see anything they want, to the point of deeming any other view as unacceptable,…

In this case you have not only peer pressure, and that is enormous, but also from the management - you not only suspect, but at this point you are sure you will be fired for expressing an opinion that may be true, but not in line with the official view. What incentives do you have to pursue the truth? More importantly, how can you be genuinely interested in improving the situation inside the company?

Re: Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

#16

Post by trolliloquy »

yorwba wrote: post #11
trolliloquy wrote: post #2

Damore said higher proportion of men in engineering positions wasn't because of explicit discrimination. And we know Google fired him afterwards stating he was wrong. But All 25 Finalists In Its Code Jam Coding Competition are Men. In fact, With the exception of 2011, in 14 years of Code Jam, no Female has ever made it to the finals. Google's own non-discriminatory machine tool that evaluates codes, which doesn't tak…

It could very well be the case that the higher proportion of men in engineering positions is mostly because of discrimination, while the increase in the proportion of men among finalists in the Code Jam competition isn't . (Not claiming that is the case, just highlighting the possibility.) How? Assume for the sake of argument that discrimination is the only factor influencing the gender distribution among CS professi…

It happened that I read about mpweiher's comments and I found out a linked medium article by [Ex-googler & entrepreneur Vidya Narayanan](https://medium.com/the-mission/im-an-ex-google-woman-tech-le...).

I agree on your point that the discrimination begins very early on.

The aforementioned article, although, bolsters the point that females may aspire to adopt different career options. Therefore, the organizations can't be held responsible for creating the gap/divide. And I seem to agree with Damores's memo because he mentions solutions to the problem of gender-ratio-gap by suggesting programs to attract women to tech.

In conclusion, complaining about the gender ratio alone won't fetch us equality but collectively attacking the root of the problem may.

Re: Was James Damore Right? All 25 Finalists in Google Code Jam Are Men

#18

Post by forthefuture »

trolliloquy wrote: post #17

I'm new to HN. Curious to know what does a [flagged] post mean? Does it mean that I violated any policy? And what'll be the consequences of it - will it lead to account suspension or something?

Flagged just means an overwhelming number of people don't want to keep seeing stories like this.

It's only attached to the individual thread, not to your account, so no worries.

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