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I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

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Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#391

Post by unityByFreedom »

leereeves wrote: post #367
unityByFreedom wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't speak about Canada, but in the US, personal anecdotes aside, 60% of college graduates are women. The gender gaps under discussion are specific to computer science [1]. That more and more women have been (a) going to college and (b) getting into STEM with the exception of computer science is why this is so interesting to debate. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

I'm aware that some people are trying to limit the scope of the discussion, and yet, I wonder why no one cares about the young men who are now at a disadvantage.

>>> 60% of college graduates are women

>> The gender gaps under discussion are specific to computer science

> I'm aware that some people are trying to limit the scope of the discussion

"Trying to limit the scope" ? This post is about tech's approach to diversity. You are the one moving the goalposts.

Besides, this is clearly a continuation of the conversation Damore started.

I believe Damore limited the scope to computer science because he found research indicating (1) women were more interested in people than things, and (2) programming is more thing-oriented.

Given that his cited research is under a good degree of scrutiny, broadening the scope to the suitability of women or men to all fields would require significantly more evidence.

> I wonder why no one cares about the young men who are now at a disadvantage.

The young men are only at a disadvantage if you believe women are biologically inferior or less-inclined towards certain occupations.

As yet, there isn't any evidence that is true. There is a lot of evidence showing that if we remove socialized barriers, like letting women attend university, then their participation rate in male-dominated activities increases.

I am unaware of any barriers to young men attending university. In fact, I believe I was a beneficiary of affirmative action, as my grades were slightly lower than the normal for my college, and our school's female-male ratio was 60-40 or more.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#392

Post by unityByFreedom »

stevenwoo wrote: post #99
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: everyone knows the candidate pool is overwhelmingly comprised of men. There's no real dispute anywhere about this fact. It's not part of the debate; there is no debate about it. Nobody can reasonably believe it's realistic to expect parity in hiring in the immediacy, and all the available evidence suggests --- like you'd expect! --- that Google doesn't expect that either. That makes that part of the argument i…

Doesn't that kind of point to an alternate solution, that the entire interview by interrogation coding process is the problem (if the input pool is 98% men of course they are going to get 98% men out) and they should be doing the mentor approach/internship for all junior programmers instead of the rigid pass/fail requirement. One of the problems with their current approach is similar to the college hazing ritual, all…

> if the input pool is 98% men of course they are going to get 98% men out

Will they? What if women stay in their roles longer than men? Then, you would less often be replacing women.

If men more often apply to new jobs, that could explain why the candidate ratio is more skewed than the ratio of actual workers.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#393

Post by unityByFreedom »

leereeves wrote: post #379
malyk wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young men aren't at a disadvantage at all. They are still greatly advantaged, just to a very slightly lesser degree than before. It's like a basketball game where a team was ahead by 45 points at the half. Now they are ahead by "only" 25 points, but somehow they are now at a disadvantage? Certainly they aren't winning by as much, but they are still winning by a significant margin. That's the situation we are in in th…

And in the larger world? What data are you relying on that suggests young men are advantaged? I've just cited two very significant statistics that suggest otherwise.

Leadership positions are dominated by men. Young men have a higher likelihood of landing those roles.

That could also explain why fewer men attend college. They don't need as many credentials to land higher ranked positions.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#394

Post by manfredo »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #393
leereeves wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in the larger world? What data are you relying on that suggests young men are advantaged? I've just cited two very significant statistics that suggest otherwise.

Leadership positions are dominated by men. Young men have a higher likelihood of landing those roles. That could also explain why fewer men attend college. They don't need as many credentials to land higher ranked positions.

Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]. Men disproportionately occupy both ends of success and failure.

On the note of education, men may not need credentials to achieve comparatively well paying jobs, but this comes with other trade-offs. For instance men make up 93% of occupational deaths[3] in the U.S. The tendency for to reach better paying jobs without the same educational attainment may not necessarily a sign of privilege so much as social pressure to take high-risk jobs for more pay.

Ultimately, things like privilege are subjective and heavily based on moral weightings. Does being more likely to be killed on the job offset a higher pay? Is being more likely to end up as a CEO offset being more likely to end up behind bars? These are moral - not factual - questions, so there's as many right answers are there are people on this planet.

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-in-leadership-fort...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality#Gender

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#395

Post by urahara »

BadassFractal wrote: post #230
groby_b wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Correlation does not imply causation". The go-to of the armchair scientist. It doesn't imply there isn't causation, either. We have plenty of evidence of rampant systemic sexism. We have plenty of evidence that women left the field due to that sexism. We have evidence that the field's composition changed fairly recently (in the late eighties). We have evidence the culture changed around that same time. If you would…

We do not have plenty of evidence of rampant systemic sexism. That is not a self-evident truth unless you're bought into the ideology pushing that agenda. Next.

We do. It is exactly what we have - plenty of evidence of systematic sexism in tech, many other industries Ana society as a whole. It is so evident that nothing is left to debate about this fact.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#396

Post by dragonwriter »

manfredo wrote: post #394
unityByFreedom wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leadership positions are dominated by men. Young men have a higher likelihood of landing those roles. That could also explain why fewer men attend college. They don't need as many credentials to land higher ranked positions.

Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]. Men disproportionately occupy both ends of success and failure. On the note of education, men may not need credentials to achieve comparatively we…

> Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest run on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]

It's not unknown for destitute people in America to deliberately try to get sent to prison for better support; it's not the lowest rung on the ladder, counterintuitive—and perverse—as that may be.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#397

Post by unityByFreedom »

manfredo wrote: post #394
unityByFreedom wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leadership positions are dominated by men. Young men have a higher likelihood of landing those roles. That could also explain why fewer men attend college. They don't need as many credentials to land higher ranked positions.

Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]. Men disproportionately occupy both ends of success and failure. On the note of education, men may not need credentials to achieve comparatively we…

Were these rates very different before women worked, or before they voted? I have a feeling men have always made up a significant portion of the prison population.

This isn't a zero-sum game. Helping women get placement in the workplace doesn't mean men won't get jobs. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we will stop supporting young men stay out of prison.

The idea is that as we become a more inclusive society we can all have more freedom to do what we want to do.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#398

Post by manfredo »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #397
manfredo wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]. Men disproportionately occupy both ends of success and failure. On the note of education, men may not need credentials to achieve comparatively we…

Were these rates very different before women worked, or before they voted? I have a feeling men have always made up a significant portion of the prison population. This isn't a zero-sum game. Helping women get placement in the workplace doesn't mean men won't get jobs. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we will stop supporting young men stay out of prison. The idea is that as we become a more inclusive society we ca…

I don't disagree with anything you write here. I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values.

To re-use the analogy from one of the parent[1] comments in this chain, if societal advancement is a non-competitive game of basketball it's not a zero sum game, just as you say. One group's advancement does not come at the expense of another's. The point is, one person can see that one group is behind compared to another while a different person sees the opposite. For instance someone can place a greater emphasis on wage differences, while a different person more heavily values disparities in occupational deaths. Both reach a opposite conclusion, and neither is wrong since these are claims made based on values as much as data - and values differ from person to person.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014872

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#399

Post by [deleted] »

ryanobjc wrote: post #179
turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

So, from the context of Google, you are implying that is not what Google does (hires only to the bar). However, that is exactly what Google does. To get hired you have to pass the 5-interview in-person panel. Period. What the original memo author was railing about, incorrectly, is the perception that spending more time widening the recruiting funnel for "diversity candidates" was lowering the bar. That is not true. T…

[deleted]

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#400

Post by belorn »

mncharity wrote: post #348
belorn wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fighting the battle far earlier and getting girls interested young I can think of two major obstacles towards that. First, boys from average age of 15 enter a society where their attractiveness and social status is directly correlated to how much wealth they have. As such there is a strong incentive towards getting a job as early as possible or focusing studying towards specific high paying professions like tech. I…

> When a student fail a exam at a university level, the risk that they will switch program is several time higher if their gender is a minority in their class. Belonging interventions can have a startlingly large impact this kind of failure mode. Instilling "college is hard for people - they work hard, get help, and succeed" reframes difficulty from "I guess I don't belong here", affecting outcomes at scale. http://g…

Interesting, the first study suggest that a single general session to prepare students can reduce the problem by 31-40%. If such single session training could be pushed down the ages, say around the age of 18, it could have a noticeable effect on gender segregation. The 31-40% effect is in regard to the demographic that already had picked a program/direction, but it seems to have potential in addressing one major cause of gender segregation.

The second study only look at half the population, only during the first year of college, and the result they measure were GPA. Those are severe limitations if we are looking for a general solution to a problem that both genders suffer from. That said, social-belonging intervention in education seems useful in particular since bullying is still a major issue at all levels of education, and stress management also seems useful in a place where stress is creeping down the ages.

Thanks for the book. The summery was in particular a good read, highlighting both success and failures in prescribed solutions. If there is a one failure mode of physiological experiments that often seems ignored, it is the effect of false hope and empty charades. The recentness of the cited references implies there is a lot of more work to be done in the field in finding general solutions.

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