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Announcing .NET Core 2.0

blogs.msdn.microsoft.com

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Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#101

Post by millstone »

TensorMetric wrote: post #74
sjmulder wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With GTK, QT, Tk, etc we used to have a fairly good near-native cross platform story before mobile happened. Apple's reluctance to accept non-native code, Google's pick of Java for Android and early smartphone resource limits made native code a necessity. Meanwhile the web developed into a universally supported application platform which made it inevitable that JavaScript made its way to mobile as processing power in…

If only Microsoft would let us build native UWP apps in F# without having to jump through hoops with web frameworks https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15007166

Wait what? That's totally astonishing - I thought the entire point of .NET and the CLR was to be a language-agnostic runtime. Why can't you build UWP apps with it? How do they even know?

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#102

Post by bonoetmalo »

millstone wrote: post #101
TensorMetric wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only Microsoft would let us build native UWP apps in F# without having to jump through hoops with web frameworks https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15007166

Wait what? That's totally astonishing - I thought the entire point of .NET and the CLR was to be a language-agnostic runtime. Why can't you build UWP apps with it? How do they even know?

I'm currently working through a CLR via C# book club at work, so I'm curious as well. I know you can make WPF apps in F#.

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#104

Post by pjmlp »

gwbas1c wrote: post #73
SiVal wrote: post #18

I wish I had a better sense of where cross-platform desktop app platforms stood these days: Electron, Java, .NET, QT. All I hear are "Eww, Electron is ridiculous, slow, heavy Web junk for desktop", "Eww Java is blub, insecure, and half-abandoned by Oracle", "Eww, .NET is Microsoft and unreliable for anything serious on non-MS OSes", "Eww, by the time you pay the license, learn QT, learn the odd variant of C++, and ma…

I work on a cross-platform desktop application written in C#. We use .Net on Windows and Mono on Mac. The thing with desktop applications is that an "industrial-strength" one needs to look native; thus it's in our best interest to use the native language of choice. This means that our Mac UI is Objective C, and we're very good at integrating Objective C and C#. The other thing with desktop applications is that if you…

This is actually the only use case we have for C++, besides interacting with the native APIs from JVM/CLR.

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#105

Post by pjmlp »

millstone wrote: post #101
TensorMetric wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only Microsoft would let us build native UWP apps in F# without having to jump through hoops with web frameworks https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15007166

Wait what? That's totally astonishing - I thought the entire point of .NET and the CLR was to be a language-agnostic runtime. Why can't you build UWP apps with it? How do they even know?

There is no CLR on UWP, everything is AOT compiled to native code, excluding JavaScript.

VB and C# make use of .NET Native and C++/CX are just a few C++ extensions that look like C++/CLI but compile to native code as always. One can also use standard C++ with WRL or C++/WinRT libraries.

.NET Native shares the compiler backend with Visual C++.

The issue is that the .NET Native compiler team doesn't care about supporting the IL required by F#.

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#106

Post by pjmlp »

bonoetmalo wrote: post #102
millstone wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? That's totally astonishing - I thought the entire point of .NET and the CLR was to be a language-agnostic runtime. Why can't you build UWP apps with it? How do they even know?

I'm currently working through a CLR via C# book club at work, so I'm curious as well. I know you can make WPF apps in F#.

There is no CLR on UWP, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15015761

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#107

Post by pjmlp »

vintagedave wrote: post #83
SiVal wrote: post #18

I wish I had a better sense of where cross-platform desktop app platforms stood these days: Electron, Java, .NET, QT. All I hear are "Eww, Electron is ridiculous, slow, heavy Web junk for desktop", "Eww Java is blub, insecure, and half-abandoned by Oracle", "Eww, .NET is Microsoft and unreliable for anything serious on non-MS OSes", "Eww, by the time you pay the license, learn QT, learn the odd variant of C++, and ma…

Don't forget Delphi and C++Builder. Windows, Mac, iOS, Android, Linux Server, cross-platform UI framework with native controls as well as native-themed ones. Runs on the GPU, vectorised, fast. Two languages, including C++ and Object Pascal (similar to C# in feel, but not C-style syntax.) Very large set of libraries for app development, server development, etc.

I used to think C++/CX could finally be what would make Visual C++ actually Visual and comparable to C++ Builder, but the talks at BUILD and the exclusivity of C# even for HoloLens and Fluent Design demos shows that it failed to gain momentum, being mainly used by Microsoft to write low level code.

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#108

Post by pjmlp »

tracker1 wrote: post #93
dep_b wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electron means you need 2GB of memory for a simple chat app like Slack to talk about the application you're building in a fully featured all bells and whistles included application like Visual Studio that only takes 700MB of your memory. Compare what Visual Studio + ReSharper does versus what Slack does. I have no idea what 70% of the features in Visual Studio do yet I'm using it professionally for years and years, t…

I have VS Code with a dozen plugins running, and using about 1GB two editor windows, each with a few tabs open, as well as the terminal (best point of integration imho) in each. Spotify seems to be using a bit under 200MB. For comparison, libre-office with a 60-row spreadsheet open is using 145MB. Frankly, it's not that bad... I've got 16GB on my laptop (thanks apple), and 32gb on my home desktop, though may go threa…

Many of us still have 8GB systems or even plain 4GB.

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#109

Post by pjmlp »

GordonS wrote: post #79
jahewson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of languages built on the CLR [1], including variants of Clojure, Python, and Ruby. Then there's the "official" languages: C#, C++/CLI, VB.NET, JScript.net. I suspect what's going on is that 1) unlike Java C# has actually evolved so the need for "escape hatch" languages is lesser, and 2) .NET developers want to use languages with rich Visual Studio tooling. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CLI…

Don't forget F#!

Its future is uncertain with lack of UWP support, the way things are going expect Microsoft to offer it to the community.

I hope being proven wrong though.

Re: Announcing .NET Core 2.0

#110

Post by pjmlp »

mike_hearn wrote: post #61
sandGorgon wrote: post #19

Why are there so few new languages built on the .NET platform ? This is a genuine question - is there something about the JVM that gives rise to such vibrant ecosystems. Clojure, Scala, Kotlin, Groovy, JRuby : Most importantly, every one of them is in production use - not just as toy/experimental languages. And we havent even opened the Pandora's box that is Java 9+Truffle. There's a lot of broscience that .NET is su…

The .NET runtime is not superior to the JVM and probably never has been. Certainly not in performance. The JVM stomps .NET CLR in performance. C# has been superior to Java, as a language, for quite a long time (IMHO) and likely always will be. The libraries, well, I don't know. Pretty similar I guess. The thing to consider about programming languages is there's no way to make money from them anymore. That means they'…

.NET always had AOT compilation from day 1, and now has .NET Native, which is the same backend as Visual C++.

It had forks being used to write Singularity and Midori, and official support for unsafe code if performance required it to, including ways to manually manage memory.

The CLR has native APIs for IL rewriting engines, via the profiler native API.

Supports value types, SIMD, and the roadmap to C# 8.0 will be adding more features bringing C# low level capabilities closer to C++.

Java will be getting some of these goodies as per Java Language Summit 2017, but they are all targeting Java 10 or later, while .NET is delivering them on 2017.

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