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I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

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Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#371

Post by unityByFreedom »

icc97 wrote: post #342
mcguire wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: The percentage of women in computing is roughly 25%. I don't know how she got the 90% and 98% numbers.

It's in the text next to the 90% > But I was working with a candidate pool composed of 90% men. Try software engineers with experience in sensors, wireless and hardware stacks before angrily correcting my stats there.

If men changed jobs more often than women [1], or sent more applications to other companies (as a means of getting a raise at their current company), could that anecdotally make it seem like the ratio is more skewed than it really is?

I mean, if men are more often "candidates" for moving between jobs, then it would, right?

If that were true, then an employer wanting a more loyal or longer term employee might seek out more women.

[1] I have no evidence for any of this.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#372

Post by SamUK96 »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #265
turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

> "reverse sexism" This phrase is itself a loaded non-thing, as it implies that all of this is taking place in a vacuum that was laboratory-generated by white-coated technicians. But, instead, it's a grimy, imperfect world in which we know that women and other groups have been systematically disenfranchised and continue to be so . So, yeah, maybe someone else whose history does not bear that incredible burden will fi…

> To those who complain of unfairness, I say "welcome to the world experienced for generations by the very people you now resent because you have to walk in their shoes for a few steps".

I've always had a big problem with this often said bit. It's basically revenge. You're saying "people X were disadvantaged by people Y a long time ago and you are decendants of Y so you should pay."

It's frankly crazy and I can't understand why there is still a small minority of people who actually believe this "revenge for your older generation's mistakes" madness.

> cultivating a culture that at least somewhat reflects your customer base

Bad point. Let's pretend that hiring people on a merit that they are like your customers is a good idea for a sec, then for a lot of tech companies whose customers are more likely white and male, we should hire tonnes of white males! It an invalid reason.

> it is a.) true and b.) vastly underappreciated by many who frequently express their lack of appreciation with statements about "hiring the best person for the job" and the like.

We just established it's most often not true? And any sources for this customer-employee-demographic-matching hypothesis you're claiming is "true"?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#373

Post by malyk »

leereeves wrote: post #367
unityByFreedom wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't speak about Canada, but in the US, personal anecdotes aside, 60% of college graduates are women. The gender gaps under discussion are specific to computer science [1]. That more and more women have been (a) going to college and (b) getting into STEM with the exception of computer science is why this is so interesting to debate. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

I'm aware that some people are trying to limit the scope of the discussion, and yet, I wonder why no one cares about the young men who are now at a disadvantage.

Young men aren't at a disadvantage at all. They are still greatly advantaged, just to a very slightly lesser degree than before.

It's like a basketball game where a team was ahead by 45 points at the half. Now they are ahead by "only" 25 points, but somehow they are now at a disadvantage? Certainly they aren't winning by as much, but they are still winning by a significant margin.

That's the situation we are in in the tech world.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#374

Post by averagewall »

hnnsj wrote: post #199

Yes, yes, yes. You have to go to the root of the problem. It's impossible to solve the problem by (only) changing the recruitment processes. It starts way earlier than that. You can't expect to have the current gender distribution in education and job applications that we have today and then expect the numbers to magically even out in recruitment no matter what policies the companies have. It basically doesn't matter…

Why does it need to change? Maybe both men and women are happy in their common jobs? Whatever the reason, nurses seem to choose nursing and programmers choose programming so they all get what they want.

There may be a sub-minority of women who want to be programmers but are discriminated out of it. That's not good but it's surely a tiny fraction of humans. Not worth changing everyone else's job for.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#375

Post by averagewall »

jorgemf wrote: post #233

> I have told my daughter it isn’t optional to learn coding and that she must stick with it until she’s good at it and then she can choose not to do it This is what I don't understand of society. If someone is bad at something and I think it is important, then I force them to learn it. They will hate it more in the future. All those hours wasted instead of letting her doing what she is good at, and improving that ski…

Absolutely not. I never liked math at school. I was bad at it too. But now it's a major part of my career and I love it. I would never have this opportunity if adults had let me just do what I felt like when I was a child.

Children are too young to make decisions for their future. Adults might not always be right but they're better at it than children. That's why school is compulsory, not "if the child feels like going"

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#376

Post by deorder »

cylinder wrote: post #143

Is anyone aware of how many female engineers come out of Iran? This has everything to do with education quality. Our math education is an absolute joke in the US, even mine and I went to a supposedly amazing public school. Add in cultural biases such as parents and teachers pushing bright girls to "girly" fields instead of math and you end up like this. Then in typical American fashion we try to impose quotas or othe…

The following documentary covered it and according to them it is not because bright girls are pushed to "girly" fields:

https://youtu.be/E577jhf25t4

Also watch the other episodes at:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd9_g7lAICxtlGbxh4_z8i...

https://youtu.be/Ve6uK00AvNo

It also covers why women in for example India and the Middle-East are more into computer science.

You can read more about the series at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjernevask

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#377

Post by sitkack »

humanrebar wrote: post #203
microcolonel wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear you when you say,"the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions". It just sounds like an HR platitude. If you know how to do that, I actually think you have a multi-$B idea! Unless you mean "cultural fit", or "went to the same school I did" as the best person, I'm doubtful you have one though. I've done enough interviewing and worked with enough people to know tha…

> The only reason not to do blind hiring is if it produces results which are indistinguishable from standard hiring. Or the fact that it's not really possible. Right now, most software engineering jobs are pretty communication heavy. Almost all company cultures contain a non-trivial amount of verbal communication, so with that premise, it's reasonable to have candidates verbally describe technical things or even make…

Double blind. We do it in science, then do it hiring.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#378

Post by sitkack »

turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

Diversity hires in no way mean that less qualified DI candidates are hired over others. There is so much bias in hiring that I can't even see straight. From people giving pref treatment to nation of origin, sex, schools, political affiliation, etc.

The easiest, fairest, more productive solution is to post the job where MORE DI candidates will see it. The next one is to craft positions that aren't built entirely out of "tech-stuff" that are bullshit metrics anyways, the CS Olympiad questions that don't work.

The need for diverse (in all senses of the word) is necessary for successful products.

Where I work, the majority of folks got hired directly out of college, they don't know any other src of truth. They have never had a blue-collar summer job. They came from rich to upper middle class families and their view of the world is similarly filtered. I can immediately tell when someone has "life experience" after 30 seconds of talking with them. To me, this is the bigger problem.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#379

Post by leereeves »

malyk wrote: post #373
leereeves wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware that some people are trying to limit the scope of the discussion, and yet, I wonder why no one cares about the young men who are now at a disadvantage.

Young men aren't at a disadvantage at all. They are still greatly advantaged, just to a very slightly lesser degree than before. It's like a basketball game where a team was ahead by 45 points at the half. Now they are ahead by "only" 25 points, but somehow they are now at a disadvantage? Certainly they aren't winning by as much, but they are still winning by a significant margin. That's the situation we are in in th…

And in the larger world?

What data are you relying on that suggests young men are advantaged?

I've just cited two very significant statistics that suggest otherwise.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#380

Post by flukus »

cylinder wrote: post #143

Is anyone aware of how many female engineers come out of Iran? This has everything to do with education quality. Our math education is an absolute joke in the US, even mine and I went to a supposedly amazing public school. Add in cultural biases such as parents and teachers pushing bright girls to "girly" fields instead of math and you end up like this. Then in typical American fashion we try to impose quotas or othe…

> Is anyone aware of how many female engineers come out of Iran?

Because it's a poor country. As wealth increases and women start taking careers they want to instead of careers that pay well they amount of women going into IT drops.

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