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I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

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Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#201

Post by danans »

SilkRoadie wrote: post #169
danans wrote: post #126

> Try software engineers with experience in sensors, wireless and hardware stacks before angrily correcting my stats there. There was no way I was going to come out of that with a larger percentage of women hires than I did. This seems like false reasoning. She is using an intentionally biased sample (the candidate pipeline in a narrow subspecialty of software engineering) to draw conclusions about the larger softwar…

It is not false reasoning. She is relating to her specific experiences. Where I work 80-90% of applications are from men. We now have 2 women on our team but it is still male dominated. The women are there because they were best we could find when we was hiring just like everyone else we have employed. They have earned it with their knowledge and skill. Employing for any other reason will likely demoralise the team b…

> You appear be asking tech companies to pass over excellent candidates so they can lead the way on equality.

That is absolutely not what I said. I'm saying tech companies should take active measures to counter the historical bias against qualified under-represented candidates, while simultaneously engaging in corporate efforts to influence the pipeline to produce more qualified candidates from those under-represented groups. If you don't think that such a historical bias against qualified female candidates exists at all stages of the candidate pipeline, from primary school through to job interviews, then we disagree on the basic assumptions.

The author is insisting that the sorts of efforts I described should not be the responsibility of corporations, but rather should be the result of virtuous charitable actions of individuals volunteering their time. This is like arguing that corporations should do no charitable giving to fight hunger, or fund environmental initiatives, and it should be left solely to charitable individuals to feed the hungry or advocate for a cleaner environment (I realize there are significant number of people who also hold that belief).

Fighting these sorts of large complex problems takes a lot of resources coordinated and guided by a set of values. Today, for better or for worse, those things lie in the hands of corporations. We could argue about whether that should be the case (i.e. perhaps government should be the responsible party), but it is manifestly the case today.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#202

Post by zimablue »

Nomentatus wrote: post #187
turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

The central point is proven unconsciously bias, which makes "hiring the best person" only possible with blind hiring, and blind marking in University which isn't likely to happen any time soon - to see unconscious bias ignored or passed over is discouraging since it is the problem.

Good sources for this?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#203

Post by humanrebar »

microcolonel wrote: post #181
kurthr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you when you say,"the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions". It just sounds like an HR platitude. If you know how to do that, I actually think you have a multi-$B idea! Unless you mean "cultural fit", or "went to the same school I did" as the best person, I'm doubtful you have one though. I've done enough interviewing and worked with enough people to know that…

> I hear you when you say,"the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions". It just sounds like an HR platitude. If you know how to do that, I actually think you have a multi-$B idea! Unless you mean "cultural fit", or "went to the same school I did" as the best person, I'm doubtful you have one though. I've done enough interviewing and worked with enough people to know tha…

> The only reason not to do blind hiring is if it produces results which are indistinguishable from standard hiring.

Or the fact that it's not really possible. Right now, most software engineering jobs are pretty communication heavy. Almost all company cultures contain a non-trivial amount of verbal communication, so with that premise, it's reasonable to have candidates verbally describe technical things or even make technical arguments.

Once you're listening to real voices, it's difficult to pretend that the hiring is blind.

The famous study involving auditions for positions in an orchestra worked really well because you could hide the person behind a screen and judge an entire work product without knowing anything about the instrumentalist.

Now, if most software jobs include a heavy remote work component some day, it might be more reasonable to throw a somewhat detailed spec at a candidate, have them code up a solution, then show the code (and only the code) to people evaluating the work product. But most devs don't have a day-to-day that looks like implementing textual programming problems for strangers.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#204

Post by hnnsj »

microcolonel wrote: post #189
turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

> fighting the battle far earlier and getting girls interested young so that they choose to enter these fields at a higher rate than they currently are doing. I encourage you to try, but grand social engineering projects have been devoted to this exact specification in Sweden (and probably elsewhere), and the ratios don't seem to budge. I hope we won't all get so upset if it turns out nothing reasonable can be done.

I actually live in Sweden, and I can tell you that there hasn't been any social engineering projects at a large scale. Sure, there has been some adjustments to teaching and elementary school, but gender norms are very much alive and well here. It's not nearly enough to change a few things in school to actually make a dent, there's still soooo much influence from media, advertising, role models, friends and most adults.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#205

Post by dustinmoris »

tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

> Most importantly, though, the only contribution this post makes to the discussion is to add "I'm a woman and I agree with one side of the debate" to the mix.

Wow, this is extremely dismissive and ignorant to what this woman has written. Why?

Since she is a women in tech, the very thing which we don't have enough of and we so desperately want to have more, perhaps we should give her voice a little bit more respect and listen a bit further into what she thinks can help to fix the problem.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#206

Post by groby_b »

BadassFractal wrote: post #160
groby_b wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a meaningful statement if there actually were quota hiring. Alas, there is mostly lazy hiring. Her point that 98% of the candidates are male? I have a long list of colleges right here on my desk that she could reach out to that have a wider pool. By all means, hire by quality. And I'm not aware of a single company actually doing quota hiring. It's a silly proposal. But look at a wider range. It's not as…

> I'm sick of tired of the hiring strawman. The reason there's a scarcity of women and other minorities is that many companies have a culture that's full of toxic sewage. Correlation does not imply causation. Is rampant systemic sexism the reason why most oil rig workers are male? Is rampant systemic sexism the reason why 95% of child care teachers are women? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8 Disparate outc…

"Correlation does not imply causation". The go-to of the armchair scientist. It doesn't imply there isn't causation, either.

We have plenty of evidence of rampant systemic sexism. We have plenty of evidence that women left the field due to that sexism. We have evidence that the field's composition changed fairly recently (in the late eighties). We have evidence the culture changed around that same time.

If you would like to make your gender-essentialist case, you should at least try to build a model that explains these things, instead of asking empty rhetorical questions.

Most importantly, I suggest staying in the industry we're discussing, as opposed to bringing up straw men outside of it.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#207

Post by mbfg »

reitanqild wrote: post #104
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact is that virtually none of the software engineering we do in the industry --- very much including most of the work done at Google --- requires a college degree in the first place. Please do not mislabel opinion as fact. You do both yourself and the world a disservice.

Edit: I agree that GP exaggerates but... I have been paid very good money (north of USD 85000 in Norther Europe) for stuff that was mostly so simple I could easily taught a bright and reliable 16 y.o. to do it. (I did at a similar job.)

I understand your point, but reducing the requirements for job applicants just mean more men can now apply, which will likely not change the ratio.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#208

Post by d--b »

turc1656 wrote: post #163
d--b wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well 'lacking energy' and 'draining energy from others' is not exactly factual...

I think you mean that it is not easily quantifiable or provable with evidence. That does not mean the statement is not true and accurate.

No I mean it's a subjective view from the boss that doesn't mean anything.

She could have said that they were procrastinating, or could have said that they were consistently tired and whiny about it. Or maybe these particular women did not want to work all their weekends away and complained about it. Or it could mean they weren't cheering at the beer pong event. Who knows?

I'm just saying that 'women I hired lacked energy' is the kind of blanket statement that overgeneralizes and that fans the vicious circle she described as damaging below.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#209

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

stared wrote: post #133

On a lighter tone, here are some lessons I've learnt at !!con (a conference by Recurse Center aka Hacker School alumni): http://p.migdal.pl/2017/08/14/bangbangcon.html tl;dr: you can get great inclusivity primarily by being welcoming, accommodating for needs (in an open-ended way, not restricting it to a few axes) and, crucially, by not shaming or bulling otherwise good-willed transgressors Sure, not all of these thi…

Thanks for posting this. It was a really interesting read, and I think it's an under valued point in these discussions that there are lots of small things we could do better that add up in a big way.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#210

Post by lawnchair_larry »

ryanobjc wrote: post #179
turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

So, from the context of Google, you are implying that is not what Google does (hires only to the bar). However, that is exactly what Google does. To get hired you have to pass the 5-interview in-person panel. Period. What the original memo author was railing about, incorrectly, is the perception that spending more time widening the recruiting funnel for "diversity candidates" was lowering the bar. That is not true. T…

You are dead wrong in regards to what the memo author was railing about.
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