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I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

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Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#161

Post by pnathan »

wutbrodo wrote: post #59
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: everyone knows the candidate pool is overwhelmingly comprised of men. There's no real dispute anywhere about this fact. It's not part of the debate; there is no debate about it. Nobody can reasonably believe it's realistic to expect parity in hiring in the immediacy, and all the available evidence suggests --- like you'd expect! --- that Google doesn't expect that either. That makes that part of the argument i…

> Nobody can reasonably believe it's realistic to expect parity in hiring in the immediacy, and all the available evidence suggests --- like you'd expect! --- that Google doesn't expect that either. You're clearly entirely unaware of the context of any of the diversity conversations that have gone on in tech in the last 5-10 yrs, including those internally and externally at Google. You're correct that expecting emplo…

> You're clearly entirely unaware of the context of any of the diversity conversations that have gone on in tech in the last 5-10

tptacek is, uh, not someone those words apply to. He's been involved in these discussions for the last half decade on HN, one of the key industry forums. He's run part of hiring programs at a previous employer, and founded a startup oriented on improving engineering hiring.

Politely, sir, take a deep breath. You might disagree with him, but you might want to be careful with your assumptions there.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#162

Post by CodeMage »

jasode wrote: post #10
tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

>, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. Fascinating how different readers take away different salient points. For me, her main buildup was hiring women to meet a "diversity goal" resulted in pressures to hire some women who couldn't do the work . This creates a perverse feedback loop that unfairly taints future women candidates who could do the wo…

> For me, her main buildup was hiring women to meet a "diversity goal" resulted in pressures to hire some women who couldn't do the work.

I've learned to be especially leery of arguments that sound reasonable and logical, but lack something concrete to prop them up. The post says her company paid premium salaries -- despite allegedly not being able to afford market salaries -- to women who then "lacked the energy to put us into overdrive" and "were starting to drain the energy from the rest of the team".

Even if I were to disregard that the post seems to be basing its argument on a single company's set of anecdotes, I would still need an explanation of just what the heck is meant by "energy to put us into overdrive" and how you "drain" that energy from the rest of the team.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#163

Post by turc1656 »

d--b wrote: post #141
khazhoux wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She has very valid points about what should be fought against, like subliminal biases against women in tech. But then she's like 'we had to fire our women tech workers because they lacked the energy'. Isn't that something that's easily taken out of context and fuels exactly what she advocates against? > This feels to me that it's the kind of articles that causes engineer bros to say things like: 'see, even good wom…

Well 'lacking energy' and 'draining energy from others' is not exactly factual...

I think you mean that it is not easily quantifiable or provable with evidence. That does not mean the statement is not true and accurate.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#164

Post by yorwba »

stevenwoo wrote: post #99
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: everyone knows the candidate pool is overwhelmingly comprised of men. There's no real dispute anywhere about this fact. It's not part of the debate; there is no debate about it. Nobody can reasonably believe it's realistic to expect parity in hiring in the immediacy, and all the available evidence suggests --- like you'd expect! --- that Google doesn't expect that either. That makes that part of the argument i…

Doesn't that kind of point to an alternate solution, that the entire interview by interrogation coding process is the problem (if the input pool is 98% men of course they are going to get 98% men out) and they should be doing the mentor approach/internship for all junior programmers instead of the rigid pass/fail requirement. One of the problems with their current approach is similar to the college hazing ritual, all…

And how do you determine who gets to be mentored in an internship?

Unless you take all candidates, you are back to reducing the pool to a more manageable size, presumably using classic interview techniques.

And unless the mentors are biased, this still doesn't change the fact that your hires as a population will be similar to the applicants.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#165

Post by pbhjpbhj »

imron wrote: post #152
Zyst wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about an artificially anonymized process. HR does know, or assumes, your gender from receiving your CV. But from that point onward your identity is anonymous. For instance, HR creates a throw away email which will be used during the hiring process to coordinate the rest of the tasks. The coding interviews could use one of the many platforms we have for shared/same space coding with an added chat box for talking y…

> And so hiring decisions are done by interviewers without knowing the gender or how the candidate looks. It might make the situation worse: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-tria...

It's very sad that "free from sexist, racist, ageist biases" is considered "worse", surely?

Do you agree?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#166

Post by nthcolumn »

Women are sick of being 'women in tech'. Being 'women speakers' at cons. They just want to be judged on their merits. Quotas are a check balance FOR quality not instead of. That you are finding and eliminating barriers to the best candidates in the hiring process because if you were doing it properly then there would be a balanced hire reflective of society at large. There should be no need for the quotas because as we all know there is no scientific evidence of any gender-based aptitude advantage. However it is evident from the numbers and in the wrongheaded attitudes of some people that there is some considerable adhesion to outdated, backward stereotypes. Yonatan Zunger also ex-Googler explains the diversity policy when he replied to the memo: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

I concur with him 100% and find it extremely frustrating that these old prejudices persist among otherwise intelligent people.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#167

Post by kordless »

tptacek wrote: post #85
wutbrodo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody can reasonably believe it's realistic to expect parity in hiring in the immediacy, and all the available evidence suggests --- like you'd expect! --- that Google doesn't expect that either. You're clearly entirely unaware of the context of any of the diversity conversations that have gone on in tech in the last 5-10 yrs, including those internally and externally at Google. You're correct that expecting emplo…

No, you're relying on a false dichotomy here. The logic in your post suggests that if I believe it's unreasonable to expect gender parity at Google, I must also believe that the current gender distribution at Google is OK. That doesn't follow logically.

The downvotes here indicate logic doesn't always follow where there exists polarity in a belief of "truths". While you may be correct in your assertions, you will still lose the argument because it's not what people want to hear. My own downvotes aside (within 30 seconds, no less) is the point is that some topics become "logically lodged" in a jam and cannot be freed by open discourse.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#168

Post by kurthr »

turc1656 wrote: post #146

" In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech. " Precisely. This goes directly to the core of the issue and what I had brought up on the thread recently about the Google employee who got fired. Specifically, if companies were truly interested in fairness, the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions.…

I hear you when you say,"the only mandate for the interview process would be to hire the best person, no exceptions". It just sounds like an HR platitude.

If you know how to do that, I actually think you have a multi-$B idea! Unless you mean "cultural fit", or "went to the same school I did" as the best person, I'm doubtful you have one though. I've done enough interviewing and worked with enough people to know that even the best hiring managers turn away good candidates and get a few duds.

Once you're into real hiring statistics you have to be very careful of confirmation bias and "I just like this guy"ism even after the fact... they look and act like your successful hires. It's hard to even say, unless you're personally looking at their work on a regular basis and know what direction they're being given.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#169

Post by SilkRoadie »

danans wrote: post #126

> Try software engineers with experience in sensors, wireless and hardware stacks before angrily correcting my stats there. There was no way I was going to come out of that with a larger percentage of women hires than I did. This seems like false reasoning. She is using an intentionally biased sample (the candidate pipeline in a narrow subspecialty of software engineering) to draw conclusions about the larger softwar…

It is not false reasoning. She is relating to her specific experiences. Where I work 80-90% of applications are from men. We now have 2 women on our team but it is still male dominated. The women are there because they were best we could find when we was hiring just like everyone else we have employed. They have earned it with their knowledge and skill.

Employing for any other reason will likely demoralise the team because they will likely under perform. They will likely under perform because instead of finding the best person, you find the best person based on a subset of arbitrary equality rules.

There is no reason why 50% of tech jobs cannot go to women. The main barrier we come across is there aren't enough skilled women applying. I think the author hit the nail on the head. It reflects my experiences.

You appear be asking tech companies to pass over excellent candidates so they can lead the way on equality. To have equality for equalities sake. It's wrong. Where there are descrepancies between genders we should ask why they exist.

Take child care, the majority of people in childcare are women. Should we be passing over women with years of experience and excellent qualifications to bump the number of men in the industry?

I would love to see a few guys at my kids nursery. However they should be there because they were the best for job. I would pull my kid out of the nursery if they passed over better candidates to fix this gender ratio. I want the best outcome for my children.

The same is true with business. Merit is the measure that matters. More women in tech will lead to more meriting jobs in the industry, which in turn will lead to the male/female ratio improving.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#170

Post by dang »

mberning wrote: post #57

A truly revolutionary idea in this era of authoritarian social justice causes.

Generic ideological tangents never lead anywhere interesting and pretty much guarantee contentless flamewars, so please don't take HN threads in such directions.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15010185 and marked it off-topic.

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