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I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

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Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#131

Post by KirinDave »

One of the reasons I push for very objective, fixed, and carefully selected technical interview techniques is precisely to avoid these issues.

The goal is to reach a point where either you pass the technical, or you don't. But making a fair technical assessment for levels and roles in a company takes time and is very tempting (but, I argue, futile) to contract out.

I think in a larger context: the "pipeline problem" people want to point to as a source of the gender gap in hiring will become our primary issue when we first iron out the issues with the atrittion and harassment we see for women in the workplace.

As for gender essentialism, I think this woman has every right to her opinion and I support her efforts, but I think she's approaching the problem wrong. She's showing kids perhaps one of the ugliest and least rewarding facets of being a software engineer and wondering why her daughter (who has almost certainly had positive modeling for a lot of other roles) isn't interested.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#132

Post by nodamage »

jasode wrote: post #10
tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

>, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. Fascinating how different readers take away different salient points. For me, her main buildup was hiring women to meet a "diversity goal" resulted in pressures to hire some women who couldn't do the work . This creates a perverse feedback loop that unfairly taints future women candidates who could do the wo…

> For me, her main buildup was hiring women to meet a "diversity goal" resulted in pressures to hire some women who couldn't do the work. This creates a perverse feedback loop that unfairly taints future women candidates who could do the work -- which ends up undermining the whole point of diversity.

Wow, that sounds terribly unfortunate! Did this happen while she worked at Google? Or while working at her startup? What are the mechanisms behind this? Do the diversity programs at Google have lower hiring standards than the normal hiring track?

(In case it's not clear, my point is that she appears to be describing a hypothetical scenario. The claim that diversity programs result in hiring unqualified women is a very strong claim (not even one that James Damore makes in his memo), and needs to be backed by actual evidence.)

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#133

Post by stared »

On a lighter tone, here are some lessons I've learnt at !!con (a conference by Recurse Center aka Hacker School alumni): http://p.migdal.pl/2017/08/14/bangbangcon.html

tl;dr: you can get great inclusivity primarily by being welcoming, accommodating for needs (in an open-ended way, not restricting it to a few axes) and, crucially, by not shaming or bulling otherwise good-willed transgressors

Sure, not all of these things may scale, or be copy-pastable to workplace environment.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#134

Post by smokeyj »

michaelmrose wrote: post #43
smokeyj wrote: post #19

And your contribution is.. Mansplaining?

Mansplaining is one of those words like libtard or freetard that indicates that the user is unlikely to say anything insightful or deep.

Definitely being ironic. It's a weird place we're in now - not because of any idea being discussed - but because of who is allowed to have an opinion.

But really, I'd be interested in how many women tptacek hires, and how he cultivated such a talent pool.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#135

Post by muninn_ »

Danihan wrote: post #105
iainmerrick wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to get to know someone's personality at a deep level to make a hiring decision, you need to know their skill level and aptitude. I agree, but how do you estimate their aptitude in an unbiased way? That mostly rules out face-to-face conversations, which is what most companies use. Aptitude tests? I feel like those have a bad reputation, at least in Bay Area tech companies. Are there good tests we should…

I personally believe including "cultural fit" in hiring decisions is introducing massive amounts of bias, almost by definition. Aptitude can be figured out by something as simple as SAT or GMAT scores. If universities use those test scores, why shouldn't employers? Skill level is determined by doing tasks very similar to the ones that will be given at the job. You know, like reversing red / black binary trees in memo…

Mainly because those tests aren't really a good measure of aptitude, and minoriies and women tend to (at least historically, idk about now) score lower. So you would end up with a company full of white, Asian, and Indian guys. (Not making a judgement here just pointing it out)

You could also use the test as a filter mechanism, but I'd just not take the test unless you paid for it as the recruiter. Even then they require months of serious study for most people. It just doesn't work well overall. Take home "work samples" tend to be the preferred method right now and they seem ok as long as they aren't abused.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#136

Post by jmull »

Icedcool wrote: post #23

"In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech." Awesome. A plea towards hiring based on quality, rather than quotas. Towards a group that is judged by the content and quality of their character rather than some of the variation of an attempt to combat discrimination through discrimination.

That's great, but that's a non-solution.

We've been going down the path where virtually everyone agrees people ought to be hired and promoted based on merit, yet we have an industry rife with harassment, various -isms, and discrimination.

I'm pretty sure quotas are not the answer, but offering up the tried and failed idea that we should all just stop being bad is rather pathetic, in my opinion. In any case, I think we can expect it to work as well as it ever has.

Edit: minor typo

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#137

Post by aoeuasdf1 »

msteffen wrote: post #106

I worked at Google, and Alan Eustace, Google's most emphatic champion of gender diversity when I worked there, repeatedly emphasized that Google couldn't lower its hiring bar for women candidates, because that would hurt the reputation of women already there The main forms of gender-diversity outreach that I remember Google engaging in were 1) programs for young girls, to introduce them to programming, 2) programs fo…

Wouldn't it violate US equal-opportunity laws to lower the hiring bar for women?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#138

Post by throwaway14159 »

jpfed wrote: post #6

>Feminist outbursts are driving even the most genuine of men away from us. I think this depends on what "genuine" refers to in this sentence. Many issues have loud and/or shrill advocates on any or all sides, but that has nothing to do with the actual merits of any side. Anyone who is seriously interested in arriving at the best estimates of truth or utility available should disregard whether or not advocates are shr…

Maybe in some imaginary utopia. Here in the real world, being shrill or hateful is a great way to drive people away from your point of view, regardless of its merits.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#139

Post by virgil_disgr4ce »

Frondo wrote: post #124
reitanqild wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in itself. I'll even sometimes step up myself and at some point managed to get my boss to hire the girl who cleaned our offices since she was qualified only hadn't been considered since she was Polish. The insistence on punishment (firing, public shaming) for minor offences (wrongthink) withouth due process is worrying though.

I'm going to push back on the critique of shaming. It's literally the only consequence groups without any (economic/political) power have. It bears no force of law. It creates no consequence directly except for a little discomfort on the part of the recipient. Tell historically disadvantaged communities--the ones with decades or centuries of societal biases working against them--they can't shame people they think are…

Well put—thank you.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#140

Post by mediocrejoker »

reitanqild wrote: post #110
virgil_disgr4ce wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are social justice causes authoritarian?

Not in itself. I'll even sometimes step up myself and at some point managed to get my boss to hire the girl who cleaned our offices since she was qualified only hadn't been considered since she was Polish. The insistence on punishment (firing, public shaming) for minor offences (wrongthink) withouth due process is worrying though.

Public shaming for wrongthink? I have no idea what you are talking about, nor how it relates to the article.

Can you explain a bit more?

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