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Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

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Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#91

Post by throwaway08320 »

mikegerwitz wrote: post #74
b4ux1t3 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for free software. Really, I am. I just have a problem with the idea that free software is absolutely the only way to go. I have no problem with people who refuse to run non-free software. I have a problem when they insist that I'm doing it wrong by running Windows. Sent from my Fedora-running laptop.

Free software activists and advocates are often accused of "user shaming". And they often do. Generally speaking, it's difficult to both consider and balance others opinions when you have a hard-line stance on something. It's a sign of experience and empathy when you can. Not everyone can. With regards to software freedom: we wish that nobody would have to sacrifice their four freedoms to use proprietary software, bu…

> Free software activists and advocates are often accused of "user shaming".

What do you mean with "shaming"? I've been at many DebConfs and I have never heard any other DD calling people names just for using some closed source software.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#92

Post by throwaway08320 »

b4ux1t3 wrote: post #71
jordigh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're doing anyone any harm by running Windows. I just wish you didn't have to.

See, that's an enlightened way of looking at it. In the end, until Open Source gets as much funding as proprietary software, it's not going to have anywhere near the level of direct support that things like Windows get. Say what you will about Windows (And OS X), but, for the most part, it just works, out of the box. Compare that to my experience trying to get Fedora to run on a late-model HP laptop, and you see why…

> mob of angry FOSS advocates

I've been at DebConfs, FOSDEMs and other events and never met any these angry advocates. They seem to be mailing list / twitter trolls.

> people like RMS who actively show disdain for proprietary software and those who use it

Do you have sources to support the claim that RMS shows disdain for people using proprietary software?

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#94

Post by josteink »

maccard wrote: post #48
josteink wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the servers you deploy to? What about the toolchain used by the upstream platform developers you depend on? What about the software powering their CI-systems? Whatever free software they depend on, you indirectly depend on too.

Not everyone works on web applications, and I don't claim to have any knowledge of the platform that they develop with. My point wasn't that I don't depend on free software (I absolutely do, and I do donate to the software I use every year), but that it is possible to be a developer and have very little interaction with free software.

But the projects you do depend on probably have web-pages, even if none of you are into web-development primarily.

And thus more open source dependencies unravel :)

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#95

Post by eeZah7Ux »

geff82 wrote: post #33

I always like to think Free/Open source Software is the only known occurrnce where socialism works. You give 100% of what you have for free as a programmer, but in that very same moment you make everyone, including yourself, richer and more free. As software does not get consumed, everyone's assets rise.

> the only known occurrnce > You give 100% of what you have for free [...] everyone's assets rise

...same as mathematics and most of sciences, food recipes, spoken languages, traditional music, dance, sport and game tactics...

As well as everything else, for thousands of years, before copyright was invented.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#96

Post by eeZah7Ux »

jasonkester wrote: post #35

I like to think of Free Software Developers as rational actors. So while they certainly deserve my gratitude, I disagree that we owe them any other compensation that they didn't specifically ask for. As the author notes, developers, doctors, lawyers, etc. know their value and charge accordingly. A developer who charges $0 for his work product must, therefore, be making up that value elsewhere. Most major Open Source…

> you do find the occasional artiste working away for no money

You cherry-picked corporate-backed projects. Statistics show that unpaid work (without side benefits like resume building) is far from "occasional".

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#97

Post by b4ux1t3 »

throwaway08320 wrote: post #92
b4ux1t3 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, that's an enlightened way of looking at it. In the end, until Open Source gets as much funding as proprietary software, it's not going to have anywhere near the level of direct support that things like Windows get. Say what you will about Windows (And OS X), but, for the most part, it just works, out of the box. Compare that to my experience trying to get Fedora to run on a late-model HP laptop, and you see why…

> mob of angry FOSS advocates I've been at DebConfs, FOSDEMs and other events and never met any these angry advocates. They seem to be mailing list / twitter trolls. > people like RMS who actively show disdain for proprietary software and those who use it Do you have sources to support the claim that RMS shows disdain for people using proprietary software?

Point 1: I take it you've never been on the receiving end of the "Oh, you use _Windoze_" comments. The fact that "M$ Windoze" exists as a meme is proof enough that there are enough people who show disdain for proprietary software that people took notice.

Point 2: Do you mean besides his every day demeanor? Or besides his extensive essays on the evils of proprietary software that imply _strongly_ that people who use and create them are against Freedom?

Look, the vast, silent majority, as with most groups, doesn't care what kind of software other people use. The problem is, as usual, the core, vocal group of people who dislike anyone who doesn't think like they do.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#98

Post by mikegerwitz »

throwaway08320 wrote: post #91
mikegerwitz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free software activists and advocates are often accused of "user shaming". And they often do. Generally speaking, it's difficult to both consider and balance others opinions when you have a hard-line stance on something. It's a sign of experience and empathy when you can. Not everyone can. With regards to software freedom: we wish that nobody would have to sacrifice their four freedoms to use proprietary software, bu…

> Free software activists and advocates are often accused of "user shaming". What do you mean with "shaming"? I've been at many DebConfs and I have never heard any other DD calling people names just for using some closed source software.

> What do you mean with "shaming"?

Making users feel put down in some manner for using proprietary software, even when they might not be aware of the issues surrounding it. Users might be made to feel like they're hurting themselves and others in doing so. While being made to feel personally responsible (intentionally or not), they might then be exposed to a barrage of statements about how proprietary software is bad/evil and all of the problems surrounding it, which might make them feel even worse about their position.

This can have mixed results. If a user _didn't_ feel personally attached to those problems, then he/she might find it informative and a good illustration of the problem. Otherwise, users might become defensive or angry. Some might feel ashamed or bullied.

rms can come off that way, for example, even though he legitimately doesn't intend for that to happen. He has to balance his writing style with other concerns. One of his articles[0] was the topic of discussion on an internal GNU list where I and others provided some feedback to reduce the sense I just described. He makes strong, important points in the article, but it can be off-putting to people who aren't a part of the free software community. So for free software advocates reading it, it might seem informative and an excellent example of the issues, whereas someone not familiar with software freedom might experience the issues I mentioned above. It can be difficult to convey that using proprietary software is doing harm by encouraging others to use it, for example.

[0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/is-ever-good-use-nonfree-prog... (compare with earlier versions on archive sites)

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#100

Post by wu-ikkyu »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #86
candiodari wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the other comments in this thread. No shortage of profits. Monetary, and otherwise.

Indeed there can be profits gained from FOSS but they are required, and FOSS still doesn't meet the "private" ownership qualification of capitalism.

edit: ^not required
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