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I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

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Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#61

Post by cargo8 »

tptacek wrote: post #22
jasode wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. Fascinating how different readers take away different salient points. For me, her main buildup was hiring women to meet a "diversity goal" resulted in pressures to hire some women who couldn't do the work . This creates a perverse feedback loop that unfairly taints future women candidates who could do the wo…

Because the piece isn't very well written†, it's unclear whether the "infinite loop" of mediocrity she's referring to is something she actually observed, or something she surmises is possible. She is clear and specific, presenting numbers, when talking about things she was personally involved in. Since the cycle of increasing mediocrity has a prominent float in the parade of horribles conjured by the "anti-diversity"…

I think that her "infinite loop" theory was her perception of the anecdote around hiring at her own startup. It does seem conceivable, but yeah obviously data is light here.

Good point on how the whole interview process is a crapshoot anyway. Hadn't really thought about that aspect, but obviously is a huge opportunity for subliminal bias since it is how it is.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#62

Post by ballenf »

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #27

My one complaint with this is the authors tone as it relates to her daughters interest in design. I understand the main focus of diversity in tech is in engineering, but it kind of felt it was implying she wouldn't have a place in tech by going into design. If the point of this is to fix the problems from the bottom, or the 'pipeline', wouldn't some of that also have to do with breaking down the stigma that programmi…

Or to flip around your statement: it's a special kind of out-of-touch arrogance to assume that programming is the mecca of career paths. Great way to judge anyone who chooses a different field.

While we're at it, let's make sure everyone in other fields know they're victims of discrimination and if only they were strong enough to make their own decisions they'd be engineers.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#63

Post by guiomie »

"Men who reported to me liked and respected me. Men who managed me liked and respected me."

Starting straight off with this makes me wonder if it's a perception she had or if it was the reality. The majority of people to not tell someone if they dont like them or dont respect them.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#64

Post by sbge »

tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

The whole point of the original memo was that it was making statements that only applied across large populations - i.e. sampling.

Providing anecdotal evidence as a means for support is counter productive...

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#65

Post by peoplewindow »

magic_beans wrote: post #31

> Despite that, we paid premium salaries to bring a few women who did well in our interviews. But, they lacked the energy to put us into overdrive. Worse, they were starting to drain the energy from the rest of the team. Eventually, we had to do the right thing for the company and let them go. This is one of the most disturbing thing's I've ever read in an article proclaiming to promote change in the tech gender gap.…

Why are you so mad about it? The answer is completely obvious: if her startup is offering below market rates to guys and they join anyway, they are apparently passionate about what the company does or motivated more by the promise of future wealth than day to day salary. These people will naturally have more energy because they believe if they put in 110% they'll get back 200%.

Almost without question the interview process was also eliminating men who did not seem energetic or interested in the company.

But she wanted to hire women. So, the women were hired at market rate or higher. Without question they were willing to make an offer even if they had doubts about the woman's energy or passion or commitment to the company. After all it's hard enough to make an offer if you have standards, let alone make an offer to a woman, so the last thing you want is a technically capable woman being rejected because she seemed a bit tired in the interview. These women may have joined simply because the wages were good, without any particular belief or care about the future of the firm. They will work exactly as much as needed to earn their salary and no more.

There's nothing wrong with such workers, it's a fallacy to believe all employees must be passionate. However if your process is selecting for passion except when the candidate is a woman, then the women will seem low energy in comparison. And their "I don't care, why do you care" attitude will probably rub off on the rest of the team too.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#66

Post by losvedir »

tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

Huh, I found the anecdote about her children just a cute example. The meat of the post to me was her drawing on her years as a hiring manager.

Since you, tptacek, are well known here on HN for your hiring experience, both at Matasano and Starfighter, I'd be extremely curious to know your experience with regard to that and gender. How many men vs how many women completed the crypto challenges? What about people you worked with and placed at Starfighter?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#67

Post by hitekker »

tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

> Most importantly, though, the only contribution this post makes to the discussion is to add "I'm a woman and I agree with one side of the debate" to the mix. Everything in it is a restatement of an argument that has been made, forcefully and loudly, already. Frankly: who cares?

I would say that this woman's credentials, personal experience with hiring at Google and hiring at her startup, and her (seeming) non-idealogical leanings lends weight to her words.

I wouldn't say she writes perfectly but at least well enough that I could see her frustrations, and more importantly, understand why hiring quotas may create vicious cycles.

Finally, to say "who cares?" shuts down a potentially-enlightening discussion before it can even occur. I'm all for dismissing vitriol spewed by randos, but this post was written by someone with good intentions, a clear mind, and above all, feelings that she feels are valid.

Implying she has nothing worth hearing on this subject is rather unkind.

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#68

Post by Danihan »

JimboOmega wrote: post #46
Icedcool wrote: post #23

"In the name of diversity, when we fill quotas to check boxes, we fuck it up for the genuinely amazing women in tech." Awesome. A plea towards hiring based on quality, rather than quotas. Towards a group that is judged by the content and quality of their character rather than some of the variation of an attempt to combat discrimination through discrimination.

So quotas are terrible, yes. But what if there are still biases in hiring? That someone sees a woman and assumes this or that about her based on gender alone? My own experience as a transgender person is that there are people who, as my gender presentation has shifted, really seem to view me as less competent. Not in a "girl's can't code" way, but like steadily viewing me as more junior, needing more hand holding, gi…

I believe that treating everyone as individuals, rather than as stereotypical groups, is the only way forward. It's the only truly fair approach.

What ever happened to the notion of being color-blind when it comes to policy enforcement? AKA, actually treating people equally, based on merit?

If biases are really that big of an issue (are there studies that show this is true in tech?) then what is wrong with "blind-hiring," instead of the current "diversity-conscious" hiring? You don't have to get to know someone's personality at a deep level to make a hiring decision, you need to know their skill level and aptitude.

It worked to remove the gender gap in orchestras. Why wouldn't it be good to use in tech?

http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact....

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#69

Post by sbge »

orclev wrote: post #16
tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

No, the core of the article was pointing out that setting arbitrary quotas for female hires and then sacrificing your standards in order to meet those quotas does more harm than good. Fundamentally there are two issues that need addressing, firstly trying to get more qualified female applicants which is why she recommends focusing on early education and college STEM programs. Secondly there's the issue of how to addr…

But what if there aren't enough women training in tech because not enough women want to train on tech. And why aren't we doing the same for male nannies?

Re: I’m an Ex-Google Woman Tech Leader and I’m Sick of Our Approach to Diversity

#70

Post by [deleted] »

orclev wrote: post #16
tptacek wrote: post #2

Some of the reasoning in this post is very weak. It's not very long, and its kernel is an anecdote about how her son is interested in programming and her daughter in photoshop. My daughter is also more interested in art than my son (who is more interested in video games). Both would make exceptional programmers, and both have a latent interest. Both are setting a course for STEM careers, but, like all 18 and 16 year…

No, the core of the article was pointing out that setting arbitrary quotas for female hires and then sacrificing your standards in order to meet those quotas does more harm than good. Fundamentally there are two issues that need addressing, firstly trying to get more qualified female applicants which is why she recommends focusing on early education and college STEM programs. Secondly there's the issue of how to addr…

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