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Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

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Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#31

Post by zimpenfish »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #21
zimpenfish wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As did Communism, and we fought a Cold War over that. You know this is a false equivalence - they're not even remotely comparable. > a communist is currently threatening to nuke the United States [...] has to be worse than running over a single person Again with the false equivalences. Also I don't think Kim Jong-Un is a Communist - they have collective farms, sure, but the country is much more a dictatorship than…

> You know this is a false equivalence - they're not even remotely comparable. "False equivalence" how? Communists have murdered way more people than the Nazis ever did. > Also I don't think Kim Jong-Un is a Communist - they have collective farms, sure, but the country is much more a dictatorship than anything. Can you give me an example of a Communist country that isn't a dictatorship? The "But that wasn't real comm…

> "False equivalence" how? Communists have murdered way more people than the Nazis ever did.

Has there been a world war against the communists? Not that I am aware - your comparison of WW2 and the Cold War is false although I appreciate that you're only doing it to try and force an argument to the extremes.

(You also might want to reflect on why you're this eager to minimise the crimes of Nazism.)

> Can you give me an example of a Communist country that isn't a dictatorship?

I don't need to - it's for you to show that Kim Jong-Un is a Communist and a handful of collective farms doesn't really get you there.

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#32

Post by zimpenfish »

charlesism wrote: post #30
zimpenfish wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there has to be a media for them to express their ideas. No, there doesn't. Nazism had its chance. We fought a world war over it. I think popular opinion came down on the side of "hang Nazis and prevent this ever happening again." > there should be a rule similar to net neutrality Unfortunately, Trump and his cabinet are against net neutrality.

> I think popular opinion came down on the side > of "hang Nazis and prevent this ever happening again." I doubt you really believe in the "wisdom of crowds", or that the march of progress is an irreversible cosmic force, or that God will suddenly start intervening before fascism can take hold. I don't understand what you're basing your confidence on, aside from optimism.

Insert "do all we can to" before "prevent" if you need it.

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#33

Post by merpnderp »

zimpenfish wrote: post #31
Turing_Machine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know this is a false equivalence - they're not even remotely comparable. "False equivalence" how? Communists have murdered way more people than the Nazis ever did. > Also I don't think Kim Jong-Un is a Communist - they have collective farms, sure, but the country is much more a dictatorship than anything. Can you give me an example of a Communist country that isn't a dictatorship? The "But that wasn't real comm…

> "False equivalence" how? Communists have murdered way more people than the Nazis ever did. Has there been a world war against the communists? Not that I am aware - your comparison of WW2 and the Cold War is false although I appreciate that you're only doing it to try and force an argument to the extremes. (You also might want to reflect on why you're this eager to minimise the crimes of Nazism.) > Can you give me a…

If you're going to categorize him, wouldn't he fall into the "People who've controlled countries and called themselves Communist, but who I don't think should represent Communists even though every person who's controlled a country and called themselves Communist was roughly like him?"

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#34

Post by throwaway76543 »

heymijo wrote: post #18

Two things are swirling in my head: 1) Libraries and librarians are rabidly anti-censorship 2) The Supreme Court's ruling about pornography "I know it when I see it" Libraries aren't cesspools of things titled "...a Fat, Childless 32-Year-Old-Slut" and yet subversive books have always been available. Libraries/librarians seem to have figured out how to toe the line between freedom of speech and the kinds of hate-spee…

"Libraries aren't cesspools of things"

They are, actually. There's plenty of hate filled speech in my local library. It carries Mein Kampf, for example, as well as plenty of other objectionable material.

The difference is probably that you don't fixate on these things when you visit the library. You don't consider the entire library to be a cesspool simply because it contains some objectionable material.

Libraries have a strong, approachable position which supports disseminating all speech, including vile speech. It's an academic position, independent of good PR. Folks are strongly discouraged from engaging in book-burning campaigns against libraries. This culture is largely lacking on the internet, which is primarily run by profit seeking companies who worry about their public image.

So maybe the internet isn't a cesspool either? Perhaps the issue is that the curators of the internet are happy to censor, in exchange for better public relations?

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#36

Post by stinos »

falcolas wrote: post #28
stinos wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom means freedom for anyone, including nazi, antifa, 4chan, voat.co and 8chan well sure, but doesn't freedom also mean you're allowed to select whether or not you want to host their websites?

The entire internet infrastructure is controlled by private companies. Many of which are incorporated in the US. If you hold to the belief that internet infrastructure companies should be free to censor anything and everything they want to, there is no such thing as free speech on the internet. That future is not one I personally subscribe to; I believe in the basic human right to express one self, and as ubiquitous…

that means people must be free to express themselves on the internet

If that expression of freedom happens to be not wanting to let certain others express their freedom via your infrastructure then there's a problem. Because there's 2 parties, each having the freedom to express themselves. By your saying A should let B express themselves, but that takes away freedom from A. Likewise I'm advocating that A should have the freedom to not let B express themselves even though, yes, that takes away freedom from B. So this is a tough one, because none of both solutions lets each party have full freedom. In such cases you need to look further. What I see here, is that B spreads hatred and as such, in my opinion, does way more damage to certain groups and humankind in general if you will than the damage done by A. So, since there must be a choice, I'd rather have some freedom taken away from B here.

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#37

Post by veryserioustho »

zimpenfish wrote: post #16
mejin wrote: post #14

I wounder if this is the start of a significantly less free internet. In the past if one site started censoring ideas, one could open up a new site to express those ideas. Now that a hosting site is removing a site for hateful ideas, I wounder what would come next. Maybe in the not so distant future, sites that publish mainstream Republican news will be removed from GoDaddy, or maybe sites that disagree with SOPA [1]…

> there has to be a media for them to express their ideas. No, there doesn't. Nazism had its chance. We fought a world war over it. I think popular opinion came down on the side of "hang Nazis and prevent this ever happening again." > there should be a rule similar to net neutrality Unfortunately, Trump and his cabinet are against net neutrality.

Popular opinion had the same attitude towards witches. Times change.

We had the same attitude towards communists and communist sympathizers, yet its making a comeback in 'popular culture'.

America came down on the side of 'I don't agree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it.'

That being said, this whole debacle is a slippery slope and that should be the key takeaway here, regardless of which way your political spectrum leans.

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#39

Post by int_19h »

mejin wrote: post #14

I wounder if this is the start of a significantly less free internet. In the past if one site started censoring ideas, one could open up a new site to express those ideas. Now that a hosting site is removing a site for hateful ideas, I wounder what would come next. Maybe in the not so distant future, sites that publish mainstream Republican news will be removed from GoDaddy, or maybe sites that disagree with SOPA [1]…

For there to be a media to express their ideas, you need to force some people - private actors, not government - to provide them with such a media. For most people, this is highly unacceptable, because it makes them complicit in spreading this kind of speech. It's one thing to accept that the speech itself should be legal and not prosecuted, and quite another to assist (even if involuntarily) in spreading it.

So, what's more important: the right of Nazis to free speech, or the right of everyone else to freedom of association?

Re: Daily Stormer being dumped by GoDaddy, apparently seized by Anonymous

#40

Post by int_19h »

zimpenfish wrote: post #17
kuschku wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh, that's easy - because the US has been a racist country for decades and no-one has had the balls to stamp it out. That explains why they exist, but not why new groups form today still.

Well, they're not really new groups - militia and the klan have been around for decades. They just like giving themselves new names because, like all angry idiots, they start infighting and splintering from each other. Although, yes, the GOP have been enabling and emboldening them for the last (at least 5 but really many more) years - now they have a whole bunch of people who support them in the WH that are dismantli…

Most of the ones that participated in the march in Charlottesville were genuine new groups: Identity Evropa, Vanguard America, Traditionalist Worker Party etc.

And most of their membership is not a split from KKK etc. It's new people, often with very different backgrounds age- and education-wise. And one distinguishing thing about them is that they put a lot more emphasis on politics and outreach compared to KKK, and they openly reference fascist and Nazi ideas - which is to say, they don't just talk about white supremacy, but they talk about fascist ideals for governance etc.

Make no mistake, this is a new wave of political right-wing authoritarianism in US, not the same old.

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