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Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

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Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#71

Post by b4ux1t3 »

jordigh wrote: post #69
b4ux1t3 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for free software. Really, I am. I just have a problem with the idea that free software is absolutely the only way to go. I have no problem with people who refuse to run non-free software. I have a problem when they insist that I'm doing it wrong by running Windows. Sent from my Fedora-running laptop.

I don't think you're doing anyone any harm by running Windows. I just wish you didn't have to.

See, that's an enlightened way of looking at it.

In the end, until Open Source gets as much funding as proprietary software, it's not going to have anywhere near the level of direct support that things like Windows get. Say what you will about Windows (And OS X), but, for the most part, it just works, out of the box. Compare that to my experience trying to get Fedora to run on a late-model HP laptop, and you see why people prefer something that just works. (Keeping in mind that I've been putting Linux on things for the past 15 years or so).

But that's the key: Getting Open Source funded. And that's where being "FOSS OR NOTHING" hinders FOSS, because if people don't know how to support something, and don't see any value, and are confronted by a mob of angry FOSS advocates bashing on the things those people have been using for most of their lives, they're going to back away slowly, back to their proprietary safe space, where no one is yelling at them that what they're doing is an affront to freedom.

As long as there are people like RMS who actively show disdain for proprietary software and those who use it, people are going to be turned off of FOSS. Which is a shame, in my book.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#72

Post by phkahler »

scarygliders wrote: post #49
geff82 wrote: post #33

I always like to think Free/Open source Software is the only known occurrnce where socialism works. You give 100% of what you have for free as a programmer, but in that very same moment you make everyone, including yourself, richer and more free. As software does not get consumed, everyone's assets rise.

Tikhon Jelvis, Lead Data Scientist at Target (2016-present) has a very good answer to "Is free software socialism?" at https://www.quora.com/Is-the-open-source-movement-socialism - I will quote the answer in its entirety for the benefit of this thread... No. The two are not related in any useful or meaningful ways. The first thing to note is that there are actually two core ways of thinking about open source software…

I find your argument that OSS and FLOSS are "fundamentally unrelated to socialism" rather strange. So much so that I had to google definitions of socialism:

1)a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

2)(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

Regarding OSS you wrote: "This movement has no parallels to socialism whatsoever. It believes in open source collaboration as a strong model for software development but doesn't opine at all about property rights." That seems to fit the part of definition 1 about means of production quite well. Actually I'm talking about design rather than the traditional means of production you might call replication.

As for Free Software, yes they are against the notion of intellectual property. But it is for pragmatic reasons actually. If you buy/obtain some software under traditional IP rules you are not allowed to modify it. That is in contrast to regular property laws - you can buy a car and modify it in all kinds of ways and resell it.

Where things get interesting is in the means of production in the traditional sense - producing copies. Software has the odd property that it can be replicated at nearly zero cost. In traditional industries from farming to manufacturing, production is a big deal and is where a lot of the costs are. You have resources and then you have utilization of those resources. People like to stake claims on either the resources, the means of production, or when that isn't enough, the design (IP) of the product. In contrast, communism want to take individual ownership of the resources and production away and claim it as community property. Free software also aims to strip that proprietary nature away from software and make it more of a community asset.

It may not be a perfect analogy, but to say it's fundamentally unrelated seems really strange to me.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#73

Post by Boothroid »

thinkfurther wrote: post #61
Boothroid wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because what we have now has no socialist elements? Last time I checked the US military was a pretty large part of the economy, and I would hardly class that as a purely capitalist endeavour.

The military shifts a whole lot of tax payer money to private corporations. And as Smedley Butler pointed out, without the impetus of private corporations there'd be a whole lot less war for the benefit of private corporations. From the taxpayer perspective, a bomb dropped into the middle of nowhere is just wasted money, a bomb dropped on people in a war of aggression is money wasted on murder. From the standpoint of…

But the government sits in the middle, and the overall structure has some of the characteristics of a job creation scheme. What we have right now is in no way pure capitalism - it serves the interests of some people (left and right) to represent it as such.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#74

Post by mikegerwitz »

b4ux1t3 wrote: post #64
fny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would someone have to apologize for being a free software supporter? I consider my FSF membership a point of pride.

I'm all for free software. Really, I am. I just have a problem with the idea that free software is absolutely the only way to go. I have no problem with people who refuse to run non-free software. I have a problem when they insist that I'm doing it wrong by running Windows. Sent from my Fedora-running laptop.

Free software activists and advocates are often accused of "user shaming". And they often do. Generally speaking, it's difficult to both consider and balance others opinions when you have a hard-line stance on something. It's a sign of experience and empathy when you can. Not everyone can.

With regards to software freedom: we wish that nobody would have to sacrifice their four freedoms to use proprietary software, but if they wish to do so, that is their choice. But we have an obligation to discourage it---not only because we are opposed to it, but because others' use of proprietary software in effect encourages others to use it as well. For example, the GNU operation system would never prevent users from installing proprietary software. (Actually, it can't, because someone would consider that to be an anti-feature and simply remove it.) But GNU and the FSF would never endorse distributions that encourage you to do so.

So you're not "doing it wrong" by running Windows in the sense that you're free to do your computing however you wish, and me insisting that you do otherwise would be disrespecting you as much as if someone insisted that I use proprietary software. I may not respect proprietary software, but I respect that you've given consideration and have decided to use it.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#75

Post by wu-ikkyu »

candiodari wrote: post #53
hueving wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism isn't the right term because nobody is forced to contribute to any particular project with resources or even use it. It's an economic activity with first order benefits and positive externalities.

Exactly this is capitalism at it's finest. Working on open source projects by itself has rewards : 1) you probably use it, so you use it yourself and your own situation gets better. 2) you get the efforts of others in addition to your own because of the open source nature (e.g. your code gets maintained, fixed, reviewed, ...) 3) There are plenty of companies (Google, FB, Red Hat, ...) that will give you a great job b…

>this is capitalism at it's finest

If by capitalism, you mean:

>an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Then no, because FOSS is not private or for profit.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#76

Post by wu-ikkyu »

geff82 wrote: post #33

I always like to think Free/Open source Software is the only known occurrnce where socialism works. You give 100% of what you have for free as a programmer, but in that very same moment you make everyone, including yourself, richer and more free. As software does not get consumed, everyone's assets rise.

>I always like to think Free/Open source Software is the only known occurrnce where socialism works. You give 100% of what you have for free as a programmer, but in that very same moment you make everyone, including yourself, richer and more free

Moreso anarcho-socialism, because there is no state violence involved

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#77

Post by candiodari »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #75
candiodari wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this is capitalism at it's finest. Working on open source projects by itself has rewards : 1) you probably use it, so you use it yourself and your own situation gets better. 2) you get the efforts of others in addition to your own because of the open source nature (e.g. your code gets maintained, fixed, reviewed, ...) 3) There are plenty of companies (Google, FB, Red Hat, ...) that will give you a great job b…

>this is capitalism at it's finest If by capitalism, you mean: >an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. Then no, because FOSS is not private or for profit.

Read the other comments in this thread. No shortage of profits. Monetary, and otherwise.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#79

Post by Latty »

firmgently wrote: post #44

I love that open source exists and am very grateful that people have given their time to make stuff that I get so much pleasure out of using for free. I feel like the article suggests that programmers are the only people who ever produce work on a voluntary basis though. "If you ask an engineer, a doctor, a professor, a teacher or a farmer to give you one of the products they do for free, probably they will just refu…

Maybe a more charitable reading would be that programmers are positioned to give away their work in a way that other professionals can't necessarily do.

Re: Being Thankful for Free Software Developers

#80

Post by tokai »

firmgently wrote: post #44

I love that open source exists and am very grateful that people have given their time to make stuff that I get so much pleasure out of using for free. I feel like the article suggests that programmers are the only people who ever produce work on a voluntary basis though. "If you ask an engineer, a doctor, a professor, a teacher or a farmer to give you one of the products they do for free, probably they will just refu…

Doctors do provide their services for free. Doctors without Borders is a prime example of this. Professors give research, their primary product, away for free as well (Other actors do still profit from their work though. Movements such as Open Access tries to address this problem).
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