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Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

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Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#281

Post by vmware513 »

unknown_apostle wrote: post #60

Working class people are being subjected to ultra efficient hypercapitalism, as in Uber drivers discovering they worked for free when they need to purchase a new car. Meanwhile Wall Street has been bailed out 2 times in the last 15 years alone with monetary policy. How many people went to jail? (And they haven’t learned a thing, on the contrary and quite spectacularly so.) If you want to know where the tech bubble co…

Do you guys think, maybe a capitalist, but more social system will be more maintainable long term? Similar like in Sweden or in Finnland? As I know these modern countries reallocate some part of extreme revenue to other part of the society who in needs and the whole population is more equal.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#282

Post by rockinghigh »

rayiner wrote: post #238
nine_k wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if customers do not also enjoy lower prices, faster delivery, lower fares, wider choices, etc. All this is also enabled by the very same platforms.

I didn't say otherwise. I like paying $10 for an Uber ride from someone scared I'll give them a bad rating, instead $15 from a surly, unaccountable cab driver. I'm just pointing out that if you think that's a problem, blame the people responsible for it.

Who do you think is responsible for low prices?

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#283

Post by techsupporter »

x0x0 wrote: post #244
rayiner wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you identify ultra efficient hyper capitalism as the problem, then point the finger at Wall Street traders betting on mortgage backed securities. They really have nothing to do with each other. To the extent you can blame anyone for ultra efficient hyper capitalism, blame programmers. It's programmers that allowed Uber to turn the inefficient and leisurely taxi industry into the Uber/Lyft rat ra…

No, those are all policy choices we made. Policy choices that - encouraged capital mobility - tax advantaged capital vs labor - gave an ever larger share of the national income to the ultra rich - to not enforce regulations against allowing unlimited supply of taxi cabs. - to subsidize walmart to the tune of $6.2B in 2013 [1] - to bail out banks and screw mortgage holders - to allow banks to get so large they implici…

> Policy choices that

> - encouraged capital mobility

This part, right here, is what drives me absolutely crazy and why, for all of its faults, I love the European Union.

I have no problem competing against someone else anywhere in the world to see who can do my job better, faster, or cheaper. The difficulty? I am unable to follow "my" job anywhere it is being done but the money to pay me sure as shit can be sent anywhere on the planet to pay six other people.

This is why I get a little nationalist when it comes to jobs, manufacturing, and services...the thick black lines on the map make it the most prudent course for me. If my employer says "Seattle is too expensive, we're packing up operations and moving your job to Cleveland," I'm legally allowed to work in Cleveland if I so choose. But if my employer says "Seattle is too expensive, we're packing up operations and moving your job to [choose your own city outside of the United States, Canada, or Mexico]," it is difficult or impossible for me to follow.

It pisses me off that money or goods get to be treated differently than the people who actually produce them.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#284

Post by tonyedgecombe »

int_19h wrote: post #224
jansho wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The button pusher I think is a bad example. There are not many button pushers, for one, and secondly when we talk about the current industrial revolution, it's about machines replacing humans who are doing jobs with some skills . And there are many such jobs, like operating machinery in factories, and consequently many livelihoods depending on them. Arguably replacing these jobs with machines is also too fast for any…

The root of the problem is the idea that you must be productively employed. It's a fallacy, and everything else that follows from it (like this notion that optimizations are bad because they result in fewer skilled jobs) are wrong for the same reasons. Unfortunately, it's a fallacy with very strong social support. Including, ironically, these very people who are hurt most by it.

It might be a fallacy for you or I but there are some people who really struggle without the structure of a job in their lives.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#285

Post by jventura »

pdog wrote: post #273
rayiner wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you identify ultra efficient hyper capitalism as the problem, then point the finger at Wall Street traders betting on mortgage backed securities. They really have nothing to do with each other. To the extent you can blame anyone for ultra efficient hyper capitalism, blame programmers. It's programmers that allowed Uber to turn the inefficient and leisurely taxi industry into the Uber/Lyft rat ra…

> To the extent you can blame anyone for ultra efficient hyper capitalism, blame programmers. This is as ridiculous as blaming serfs for the feudal system. You're conflating a symptom with the root cause.

I agree with you but I would say that programmers are not the problem but are the "technical" part of it..

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#286

Post by kuschku »

morgante wrote: post #175
koonsolo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about starving on the street, I'm talking about everybody in US using credit cards for payments and repay. I'm talking about shops offering their own credit cards. You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. And our credit gets instantly paid by our normal bank account. For us, a credit card is the same as a debit card but with…

> You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. To me, that's just evidence of how backwards many Europeans are in their approach to credit cards. You seem to have an attitude that credit cards are inherently evil. They're just tools, which can be misused (and put you into debt) or used for maximum convenience (accruing rewards and protections al…

Credit cards always have a cost. You get 1.5% to 2% of your money back in rewards for a 3% fee.

In Europe, fees are limited to far below that, and the European debit cards are limited to below 1% in fees.

You don't get rewards from credit cards in that situation. In fact, credit cards always end up losing you money.

Credit cards are the tragedy of the commons - if no one used them, everyone would profit. But as long as some use them, everyone gets an advantage from using them.

> I challenge you to explain why the easy availability of credit and a highly functional credit market is a bad thing instead of throwing out blanket statements like that credit scores are "crazy."

Because it is risk. You have insanely high interest rates, high fees, you have a massive risk, and the security is basically nonexistent.

To pay money online, you usually use a standardized API that uses proper cryptography, and signs with a key embedded in your device or your debit card on a reader.

With a credit card, you pay with a simple number that anyone can just steal, and if you don't take care, you're fucked.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#287

Post by vertex-four »

morgante wrote: post #175
koonsolo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about starving on the street, I'm talking about everybody in US using credit cards for payments and repay. I'm talking about shops offering their own credit cards. You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. And our credit gets instantly paid by our normal bank account. For us, a credit card is the same as a debit card but with…

> You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. To me, that's just evidence of how backwards many Europeans are in their approach to credit cards. You seem to have an attitude that credit cards are inherently evil. They're just tools, which can be misused (and put you into debt) or used for maximum convenience (accruing rewards and protections al…

It's less the availability of credit cards (they're highly available in a good many countries), it's more the assertion that if you're not using a credit card every day, there's something wrong with you. It's the fact that if you're not using a credit card in everyday purchases, you're losing the rewards and so essentially paying more for everything you buy - you're structurally punished for not participating.

Debit cards have much the same protections as credit cards in much of Europe. It's more likely that any benefits your bank wants to give you will come attached to your bank account (in return for depositing a certain amount of money per month) than that they'll push a credit card on you. Interchange fees are low enough (0.3% for credit cards and 0.2% for debit) that there's not much they can profitably provide, anyway - which means our prices aren't quite so inflated to cover the expense of serving credit card users.

Credit cards aren't bad, but the system of incentives that leads consumers in the US to believe they're the most rational choice is.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#288

Post by PeanutCurry »

zipwitch wrote: post #272
nine_k wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if customers do not also enjoy lower prices, faster delivery, lower fares, wider choices, etc. All this is also enabled by the very same platforms.

Customers also enjoy cigarettes. Which kill them. The Information Age revolution has empowered and freed us countless ways. But it has also freed us to make bad choices. And it has empowered us to do far more damage to ourselves, our civilization, and our home than ever before. And at the same time, we live in in world where the mechanisms of our existence - shaped by evolution and civilization are less suited to dea…

I'm not sure I understand the conclusion you're trying to reach here. At first I thought your point was that lower prices are somehow bad for the consumer but you never expand on that point at all. The only coherent thesis I could get out of your comment was that consumers make decisions that are sometimes self destructive like the decision to smoke. But no one thinks cigarettes are good for them, I would still argue that people who desire cigarettes have a right to purchase them in the same way that I would defend people's right to purchase any number of digital services they might not actually need.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#289

Post by kuschku »

iagovar wrote: post #204
koonsolo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about starving on the street, I'm talking about everybody in US using credit cards for payments and repay. I'm talking about shops offering their own credit cards. You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. And our credit gets instantly paid by our normal bank account. For us, a credit card is the same as a debit card but with…

We use debit cards though. I don't see credit cards often, but I do see everyone with debit cards. I pay almost everything with it since it's free, I can't screw up (debit cards have limits, or in any case the total amount of your bank account), easy, etc. I've been offered credit cards by my bank, but I do not trust them so I prefer to use a debit one. Also, Fnac or even supermarkets do offer cards, but I don't see…

Germany also heavily uses debit cards, actually. Like 90%+ of the population have an EC card (a German debit card network), in comparison to below 8% for credit cards.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#290

Post by kuschku »

danielvf wrote: post #211
slackingoff2017 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea that 12% of the population makes top one percent income for at least a year of their life. What causes so many of these people to fail? How could there possibly be so many jobs that offer that kind of income. Or maybe it's that most jobs offering high income have short tenure..

The 1% for the most part aren't billionaires. Last year in the US, the threshold was just under $285,000. Ignoring professionals, plenty of small business owners can hit that on a lucky year. (And get hammered other years). There are a lot of jobs in the US with companies with fewer than 50 people. Confiscating the assets of the 1% to create economic prosperity has been tried a few times before, and usually turns out…

The solution isn't in removing them, but in going back to the top tax rates of the 1950s/1960s/1970s, which were around 70% for the top bracket.

With that, you can then reduce the taxes for the lower economic classes, and fund better infrastructure and education.

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