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How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

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Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capitalism that you deride with the Amazon/Bezos example is the same exact capitalism that allowed the mom and pop place to have ever sold anything in the first place. So you will need to expand your argument to be in opposition of them too. Capitalism (and relatively free trade) is the only mechanism in history to have ever pulled large quantities of people out of grinding poverty. You lament the loss of the (ca…

You bring up good points, but there is such a thing as nuanced argument, and we can make distinctions between late and early capitalist models to avoid throwing out mom and pop with Jeff. I'm not going to argue that capitalism does not bring benefits, it certainly does, I don't think anyone could deny that, but just because it has brought many benefits does not imply: a.) That its negatives should be ignored or consi…

Amazon et. al. has not removed any of the interactions you've described, it's only changed shape. As fewer workers are needed to perform retail sales that labor is freed to perform other human interactive services. Many of those people now work in healthcare which is very hands on social interaction. There's more restaurants and bars, popular centers for social interaction. Lamenting the fall of mom and pop retail establishments is like lamenting the loss of the milk man. The new system is better and the milk man is now your masseuse, or physical therapist, or details your car, or provides some other valuable service for you.

People said it was "late stage capitalism" when Walmart destroyed the mom and pop.. and frankly that's who really did it. But that was a generation ago. Amazon is really just destroying Walmart. But more to the point whatever social fabric WalMart might have damaged it's nothing compared to the destruction of the family and social bonds that falls right at the feet of socialist policies that I've already mentioned. Capitalism is not the culprit here, socialism has been.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#52
post #47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that corporations encourage mental health only inasmuch as it promotes their own ends.

At least they're promoting mental health! If there is a natural law then what is in the best interest of the worker is in the best interest of lawful business. And since anything that goes against the natural law ultimately destroys itself, as Aquinas explains, a lawful business is the only kind of business you want.

Sorry, but that's total bullshit. The promotion of mental health stretches only to those with mostly-good mental health. A true focus on mental health is severely deprioritized in the workplace for legitimate mental health problems. Which, go figure - only makes mental health issues even worse.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#53
post #35

If it can be sold and used as a tool for subjugation humans will quickly determine and optimize the ways in which to do so. That's the beauty of capitalism--or possibly even economics in general--it acknowledges and respects nothing that falls outside of its own scope. No matter how ancient, sophisticated, sacred, or meaningful a practice may have been--no matter what reverence our ancestral betters may have applied…

So corporations find that mentally healthy employees are more productive/valuable so they promote mental fortitude. Somehow anti-capitalists spin even that into some deep evil. Ridiculous.

Is it about making employees healthier, or about increasing the amount of abuse without loss of health?

Are cows healthier because of antibiotics?

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it acknowledges and respects nothing that falls outside of its own scope I would like to point out that this is a truism. To a hammer, everything is a nail. To an earthworm, everything is dirt. To gray goo, everything is prime material for making more gray goo. To capitalism, everything is whatever capitalism needs to consume in order to make more and more of whatever it is it wants to produce. Systems of not-infin…

You are correct. Jean Baudrillard wrote a book about this called Impossible Exchange , that I recommend. The issue I find with capitalism is that it attempts to swallow all other systems. For instance, consider another system religion--it is not uncommon for this system to have, overlaying it, a role in the capitalist system--the capitalist system's operation and the religious system's willingness to participate beco…

Regarding the effect Capitalism has on all the other systems it encounters, I'd like to suggest you read Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher (2009).[1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism:_Is_there...

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#55
post #52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least they're promoting mental health! If there is a natural law then what is in the best interest of the worker is in the best interest of lawful business. And since anything that goes against the natural law ultimately destroys itself, as Aquinas explains, a lawful business is the only kind of business you want.

Sorry, but that's total bullshit. The promotion of mental health stretches only to those with mostly-good mental health. A true focus on mental health is severely deprioritized in the workplace for legitimate mental health problems. Which, go figure - only makes mental health issues even worse.

Yes, perhaps this result can pave the way for a broader focus.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#56
post #47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that corporations encourage mental health only inasmuch as it promotes their own ends.

At least they're promoting mental health! If there is a natural law then what is in the best interest of the worker is in the best interest of lawful business. And since anything that goes against the natural law ultimately destroys itself, as Aquinas explains, a lawful business is the only kind of business you want.

I totally agree that capitalism can be a powerful force for positive change, and agree that if it makes businesses care about mental health, that's to be celebrated. However I also think it's important to acknowledge that there's no universal law connecting employee wellbeing and profit - right now that might be functionally the case but there's no reason the scales couldn't tip the other way, and so it's dangerous to unquestioningly embrace capitalism as an inherently positive model.

SlateStarCodex's excellent post "Meditations on Moloch", (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/) says it way better than I could so I hope you'll forgive a slightly lengthy quote:

" [M]any of the most important competitions / optimization processes in modern civilization are optimizing for human values. You win at capitalism partly by satisfying customers’ values. You win at democracy partly by satisfying voters’ values.

Suppose there’s a coffee plantation somewhere in Ethiopia that employs Ethiopians to grow coffee beans that get sold to the United States. Maybe it’s locked in a life-and-death struggle with other coffee plantations and wants to throw as many values under the bus as it can to pick up a slight advantage.

But it can’t sacrifice quality of coffee produced too much, or else the Americans won’t buy it. And it can’t sacrifice wages or working conditions too much, or else the Ethiopians won’t work there. And in fact, part of its competition-optimization process is finding the best ways to attract workers and customers that it can, as long as it doesn’t cost them too much money. So this is very promising.

But it’s important to remember exactly how fragile this beneficial equilibrium is.

Suppose the coffee plantations discover a toxic pesticide that will increase their yield but make their customers sick. But their customers don’t know about the pesticide, and the government hasn’t caught up to regulating it yet. Now there’s a tiny uncoupling between “selling to Americans” and “satisfying Americans’ values”, and so of course Americans’ values get thrown under the bus.

Or suppose that there’s a baby boom in Ethiopia and suddenly there are five workers competing for each job. Now the company can afford to lower wages and implement cruel working conditions down to whatever the physical limits are. As soon as there’s an uncoupling between “getting Ethiopians to work here” and “satisfying Ethiopian values”, it doesn’t look too good for Ethiopian values either.

Or suppose someone invents a robot that can pick coffee better and cheaper than a human. The company fires all its laborers and throws them onto the street to die. As soon as the utility of the Ethiopians is no longer necessary for profit, all pressure to maintain it disappears. "

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