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YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

middleeasteye.net

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Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#211
post #2

Also see this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/896358097320636416 > Ironically, by deleting years old opposition channels YouTube is doing more damage to Syrian history than ISIS could ever hope to achieve > Also gone are the dozens of playlists of videos from Syria I created, including dozens of chemical attacks in playlists by date > Keep in mind in many cases these are the only copies of the…

Why wouldn't Youtube pass on any extremist material on to the FBI before making it unavailable for the wider public?

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#212

Youtube's response regarding one of these videos documenting abuses (emphasis mine): > "we've determined that your video does violate our Community Guidelines and have upheld our original decision. We appreciate your understanding ." Can someone explain to me why corporations, when interacting with customers regarding complaints/appeals, seem to have "don't forget to add insult to injury" as one of their motto more o…

> Does that kind of patronizing tone sound polite to the ears of a PR drone?

Yes, it does. And they're not entirely wrong. Consider this video in which Uber CEO talks with someone like a real person instead of "respectfully" brushing him off:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW50dnWVfGU

It was a PR disaster. If he'd just ignored what's-his-name as an insignificant peasant, nothing bad would have come of it.

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is a company. You want video hosting to be run by the government?

-The services provided by Google and Facebook have an unassailable majority of market share and are relied on by a huge amount of people. -They enjoy a de facto monopoly and are protected by the extreme cost, risk and time involved in building competing services. -Finally, they have a potential for abuse (say, with selective censorship or politically biased algorithms) that could essentially curb the Constitutional r…

And please explain, how would you regulated them? They have nothing in common with how utilities work, so none of the utility regulatory models would work.

What are you actually proposing?

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trusting government to regulate Facebook? No way. I lived in China; I have seen how that story plays out. Some people really do have a naïve trust in government. Free markets are the answer. Who has actually made a legitimate attempt to compete with Google or Facebook? What VCs are investing in Facebook alternatives? MySpace was unstoppable – until it wasn’t. Yahoo owned search – until it didn’t. Perhaps there ought…

No way. I lived in China; I have seen how that story plays out. It's naive to think that any one form of human organization, be it governmental or corporate, is somehow less corruptible than another. You're right to be on your guard against governmental abuses, but don't take your eye off the other balls in play. History is littered with great companies toppled by better ideas and execution. What we've seen lately ar…

> It's naive to think that any one form of human organization, be it governmental or corporate, is somehow less corruptible than another.

You don't think any organizations have ever been any more corruptible than any other organizations?

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#215

Since my understanding is that covering up a war crime is itself a war crime under Complicity doctrine, could Google executives get charged for this in The Hague?

I am not an expert in international law, but you would still have to prove intent, I believe. It's hard to prove intent on an algorithm that very simply is incapable of understanding the significance of its actions.

If I'd write an algorithm for a self-driving car that just drives it in a straight line with high speed.. I'd be still responsible if the car kills somebody and couldn't just say that "whoops it was just the silly algorithm" even though I didn't specifically intend to kill somebody.

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#216
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem on these distributed platforms is not filtering what people see , but filtering what people host or allow to transit their network connections. > In a decentralized system you also skip the law requirements since you cannot enforce multiple incompatible jurisdictions at the platform level, individual users will be responsible for enforcing it on their own nodes, similar how all you can do when accidentall…

First of all, not all p2p networks operate like Tor. For example bittorrent and ipfs only host content you look at. So hosters could largely self-select the content they replicate. Secondly, there are several tiers of content. a) stuff that is illegal to host b) stuff that is not illegal but that you find so objectionable that you don't even want to host it c) stuff that you don't like but doesn't bother you too much…

> First of all, not all p2p networks operate like Tor. For example bittorrent and ipfs only host content you look at. So hosters could largely self-select the content they replicate.

I'm aware of that, but they you suffer the problem of people wanting deniability.

> Secondly, there are several tiers of content. a) stuff that is illegal to host b) stuff that is not illegal but that you find so objectionable that you don't even want to host it c) stuff that you don't like but doesn't bother you too much d) stuff you actually want to look at. I posit that a) and b) are fairly small fractions and the self-selection mechanism of "things that I looked at" will reduce that fraction even further.

That's true, but those sets pretty much only need to be non-zero for it to threaten peoples willingness to use such a network.

Further, unless there is stuff in a), and stuff that fall into b) for other people that you want to look at, such a network has little value to most of us, even though we might recognise that it is good if such a network exists for the sake of others.

This creates very little incentive for most to actively support such systems unless such systems also deals with content that we are likely to worry about hosting/transmitting.

> For the illegal content, especially in oppressive environments, you could install a Voluntary Compliance(tm) government blocklist on public-facing nodes and still opt to run an internal node in your network that uses encrypted connections to retrieve things hosted in other countries you're not supposed to see.

That's an interesting thought. Turning the tables, and saying "just tell us what to block". That's the type of ideas that I think it is necessary to explore. It needs to be extremely trouble-free to run these types of things, because to most the tangible value of accessing censored content is small, and the intangible value of supporting liberty is too intangible for most.

> Anyway, back to filtering for decentralized content hosting. I think once you have a network it is a matter of managing expectations. You can't make content magically disappear. Platforms like youtube, twitter, facebook etc. have raised the false expectation that you can actually make things go away by appealing to The Authority and it will be forever gone. In reality things continue to exist, they just move into some more remote corners of the net. Once expectations become more aligned with reality again and people know they can only avoid looking at content but not make it non-existent things boil down to being able to filter things out at the local level.

This, on the other hand, I fear is a generational thing. As in, I think it will take at least a generation or two, probably more. The web has been around for a generation now, and in many respects the expectations have gone the other way - people have increasingly come to be aware of censorship as something possible, and are largely not aware of the extent of the darker corners of the net.

Centralisation and monitoring appears to be of little concern to most regular people. People increasingly opt for renting access to content collection where there is no guarantee content will stay around instead of ensuring they own a copy, and so keep making themselves more vulnerable, because to most censorship is something that happens to other people.

And this both means that most people see little reason to care about a fix to this problem and have an attitude that give them little reason to be supportive of a decentralised solution that suddenly raises new issues to them.

Note that I strongly believe we need to work on decentralised solutions. But I worry that no such solution will gain much traction unless we deal with the above issues in ways that removes the friction for people of worrying about legality and morality, and that provides very tangible benefits that gives them a reason to want it even if they don't perceive a strong need on their own.

E.g. Bittorrent gained the traction it has in two ways: through copyright infringement and separately by promising a lower cost way of distributing large legitimate content fast enough. We need that kind of thinking for other types of decentralised content: At least one major feature that is morally inoffensive and legal that attracts people who don't care if Facebook tracks them or Youtube bans a video or ten, to build the userbase where sufficient pools of people can form for various type of content to be maintained in a decentralised but "filtered" manner. Not least because a lot of moral concerns disappear when people feel they have a justification for ignoring them ("it's not that bad, and I need X")

I genuinely believe that getting this type of thing to succeed is more about hacking human psychology than about technical solutions.

Maybe it needs a two-pronged attack - e.g. part of the problem is that the net is very much hubs and spokes, so capacity very much favours centralisation. Maybe what we need is to work on hardware/software that makes meshes more practical - at least on a local basis. Even if you explicitly throw overboard "blind" connection sharing, perhaps you could sell people on boxes that shares their connections in ways that explicitly allows tracking (so they can reliably pass the blame for abuse) to increase reliability and speed, coupled with content-addressed caching on a neighbourhood basis.

Imagine routers that establish VPN to endpoints and bonds your connection with your neighbours, and establishes a local content cache of whitelisted non-offensive sites (to prevent a risk of leaking site preferences in what would likely be tiny little pools).

Give people a reason to talk up solutions that flattens the hub/spoke, and use that as a springboard to start to make decentralisation of the actual hosting more attractive.

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is a company. You want video hosting to be run by the government?

There is very little difference between a company and a government when the first can lobby (read: bribe) the second. I for one would welcome my files being hosted by the government if we lived in a world where democracy isn't more utopian than flying pink unicorns; as a citizen I would have a slight chance of being respected and listened to because I'd be a part of that, albeit a very small one, whilst with a compan…

Governments are not owned by corporations in any way. Governing bodies have way more budget and powers, such as the use of military and the police when they see it fit. Of course companies try to influence or lobby officials but in the end governments are not owned by anyone, and the more officials you have the more unlikely it is to bribe them all.

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. I lived in China; I have seen how that story plays out. It's naive to think that any one form of human organization, be it governmental or corporate, is somehow less corruptible than another. You're right to be on your guard against governmental abuses, but don't take your eye off the other balls in play. History is littered with great companies toppled by better ideas and execution. What we've seen lately ar…

> It's naive to think that any one form of human organization, be it governmental or corporate, is somehow less corruptible than another. You don't think any organizations have ever been any more corruptible than any other organizations?

Not once they reach a certain size, no. It turns into a pointless exercise in moral relativism. Joe brings up the Soviets, Jane counters with the East India Company. Bob rants about Trump, Betsy pulls up the Wikipedia article on Union Carbide. Sally complains about police brutality, Sam lectures her on the history of the Pinkerton Agency. Hank sticks up for the UAW, Mary criticizes the Teamsters.

None of these organizations should have been trusted implicitly to do the right thing for society at large. The burden of proof rests decisively with those who want us to believe that Google and Facebook are somehow different.

Re: YouTube AI deletes war crimes evidence as 'extremist material'

#220
post #2

Also see this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/896358097320636416 > Ironically, by deleting years old opposition channels YouTube is doing more damage to Syrian history than ISIS could ever hope to achieve > Also gone are the dozens of playlists of videos from Syria I created, including dozens of chemical attacks in playlists by date > Keep in mind in many cases these are the only copies of the…

In my opinion the important thing to remember is that Youtube could easily do something about this. It seems like there's a trend in a lot tech-centric companies to save money automating away actual content review as well as customer interaction. But humans are entirely capable of reviewing content and giving detailed explanations for why something has been judged a certain way, especially if you have them work alongside an automated system that simplifies the process for them.

I realize that minimizing human labor is a big part of how these sorts of business models achieve their profitability, but problems like this aren't going to go away as long as that's the norm. And I don't just mean poor explanations for policy decisions either. The core issue is bigger than that imo.

The information age has privatized a lot of the modern 'public' social/cultural spaces. For nations that value both the freedom of speech and the preservation of historically/culturally significant speech this is problematic. It reduces the public's ability to express itself but also their ability to look back on old expressions and learn about the history or cultural paradigms behind them.

This isn't really supposed to be a rant at Google in specific. They're just the topic at hand so they're the easy punching bag. In general, customer service aside, I think they do good work and more importantly they exercised the necessary foresight and resources to develop their products into what they are today. I'm by no means implying we should socialize social media... no pun intended. But I do think there needs to be more discourse about how these trends will affect the future of speech and historical censorship. Right now it's just a modern problem in its infancy, but decades from now people who want to see visceral content depicting firsthand experiences from events like those happening in Syria, or the Arab Spring, are going to be getting censored history. What if China started pressuring foreign companies, via benevolent coercion such as financial incentives, to implement systems that made finding information about Tienanmen Square more difficult? The privatized nature of these platforms makes this sort of attack easier as well. And I don't have a good solution, but that's why I think there needs to be more dialogue about the future of online media in general and what direction we want to steer it in.

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