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OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

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Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#201

Post by the8472 »

flunhat wrote: post #130
electrograv wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you're moving the goalposts forward whenever AI surpasses them . This time you move the goalposts forward by requiring a proof of native English proficiency. Next time it will be something else; that goalpost will be achieved, and when it is, you will move the goalpost forward yet again. Perhaps you'll require the Turing+++ test be conducted with audio rather than text. Then it will be video. Then a physical a…

The Turing test is hardly a new measure - it's been around for ~70 years and hasn't been passed yet. But otherwise I agree with what you said - this is just my personal measure of when we'll be in society-shaking territory.

Level 4 autonomous vehicles with a limited operational domain will already be in society-shaking territory without showing general intelligence, they only have to fail safely on outside domain problems.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#203

Post by e12e »

sbarre wrote: post #183
quadcore wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side question: if we consider a team of 5 bots, would they need to communicate?

If you wanted them to play "within the rules", they would need some way to communicate via the game.. Text chat would make the most sense since adding in TTS / STT would seem unnecessary.. They could even communicate in some kind of shorthand language that only the bots understand..

I kind of envision bots communicating via some form of "side channel" like bees dancing (coded messages in micro-moves/emotes withe their avatars)...

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#204

Post by e12e »

sondr3 wrote: post #125
thefreeman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that they specifically said there was no domain-specific knowledge. iirc they said they didn't "teach it the rules of dota" but they also said the training involved "coaching". I interpret that to include showing the bot useful techniques (like creep blocking) which the AI then learned leads to higher win rates, etc.

They also mentioned that in the beginning the bot figured out that the best way to win was to not play the game (aka hiding in it's own base). Then it started running around wildly, dying to enemy towers in the wrong lanes at the map. So it definitely took some nudging getting it to do something more than being AFK in base.

> They also mentioned that in the beginning the bot figured out that the best way to win was to not play the game (aka hiding in it's own base).

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

- AI "Joshua" in "Wargames", 1983

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#205

Post by dirtyaura »

dirtyaura wrote: post #155
darrenkopp wrote: post #60

Really was quite interesting to watch ( https://www.twitch.tv/videos/166172514?t=7h3m10s ). Honestly, the bot played _extremely_ well, but I think the biggest advantage was how much faster it's reaction time was and it's movements were likely much more precise than a human is with a mouse. I'm pretty interested in seeing their 5v5 results as well. It seems like that will have similar results as the bots can coordinat…

It would be a fantastic side project to teach bots to learn to speak "Dota". Learning to communicate efficiently is likely much easier as the vocabulary and intentions behind them are constrained.

I was not thinking bot-to-bot communication, but communication in mixed teams. I.e. participate in a mixed team of bots and humans, and communicate with team mates without them necessary knowing that you are a bot. We are approaching Turing test, but in this case it would be enough to talk "Dota" - i.e. communicate efficiently about the game actions with your team - no need to be able to discuss about any topic.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#206

Post by intended »

pcnix wrote: post #160
Swizec wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate those games, because the moment you become human, and try to do something intuitive but undefined and unwanted by the programmers, you get penalized. That's what I loved about Ultima Online. Characters were basically "Here are 100 possible skills to learn and 5 base stats. You get 700 points to distribute among your skills. Good luck" My fav part was that doing things that require strength made you stronger,…

Have you tried Path of Exile? You might enjoy it.

Haha of course - and absolutely right. I loved it.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#207

Post by ehsankia »

darrenkopp wrote: post #60

Really was quite interesting to watch ( https://www.twitch.tv/videos/166172514?t=7h3m10s ). Honestly, the bot played _extremely_ well, but I think the biggest advantage was how much faster it's reaction time was and it's movements were likely much more precise than a human is with a mouse. I'm pretty interested in seeing their 5v5 results as well. It seems like that will have similar results as the bots can coordinat…

I'm actually curious to see how it would've done if Dendi would've gone for a very unconventional play. I wonder if the AI is more trained towards the generic 1v1 matchup, which let's be honest, a lot of the 1v1s look play very alike and it comes down to micro. But if he would've done something completely different, would the bot know how to react?

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#208

Post by gnufied »

darrenkopp wrote: post #60

Really was quite interesting to watch ( https://www.twitch.tv/videos/166172514?t=7h3m10s ). Honestly, the bot played _extremely_ well, but I think the biggest advantage was how much faster it's reaction time was and it's movements were likely much more precise than a human is with a mouse. I'm pretty interested in seeing their 5v5 results as well. It seems like that will have similar results as the bots can coordinat…

Looks like Bot was defeated at least 50 times - https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/6t8qvs/openai_bots_w...

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#210

Post by darkmighty »

StavrosK wrote: post #169
sondr3 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also mentioned that in the beginning the bot figured out that the best way to win was to not play the game (aka hiding in it's own base). Then it started running around wildly, dying to enemy towers in the wrong lanes at the map. So it definitely took some nudging getting it to do something more than being AFK in base.

How did it figure that? There's pretty much no way to win if you're just staying in base.

The idea is that by staying in base you don't die, while your opponent (which is still pretty bad) roams around and dies.

This highlights the importance of gradual adversarial training: if the opponent was perfect, there would simply be no way to win, and hence no signal on how to gradually improve to eventually find the optimal strategy.

Also shows a weakness in most training algorithms today that don't have, for example, the capability to watch their opponent closely and try to mimic it's actions in case he's better than you. Humans do this so quickly you can see Dendi already tried replicating the AI's strategy after 1 loss.

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