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OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

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Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#81

Post by eljimmy »

darrenkopp wrote: post #60

Really was quite interesting to watch ( https://www.twitch.tv/videos/166172514?t=7h3m10s ). Honestly, the bot played _extremely_ well, but I think the biggest advantage was how much faster it's reaction time was and it's movements were likely much more precise than a human is with a mouse. I'm pretty interested in seeing their 5v5 results as well. It seems like that will have similar results as the bots can coordinat…

I'm very curious to see how a 5-AI team would "plan" smoke ganks. Really exciting time for technology as deep learning is moving into gaming.

I'm reminded of the games played in the movie 'Her'.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#82

Post by AndrewKemendo »

Tangokat wrote: post #58

It is so weird reading all these comments. Almost half of them start out as "it's impressive.. but". Is it human nature or are HN commenters just so sceptical/negative of all the new tech? One of the OpenAI guys mentioned that they could potentially use the same technique in real life applications like surgery. Surgery is not "just" run on a computer it has a physical component too. Is that really the next step or wa…

In my years on HN I think I've only seen a handful of comment sections that are predominantly positive or lauditory. That's not to say they are negative, but usually critical or cynical. I think it's good, keeps people on their toes.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#83

Post by ted12345 »

I wonder if some of the things the guy says are misleading.

In the video, we see the bot "creep blocking." For those unfamiliar with dota, players can use the model of the unit they control to obstruct the movement of allied computer controlled units in order to gain a favorable position.

I suppose it's possible that over millions and millions of matches played against itself, the OpenAI bot "invented" this behavior for itself. But it seems more likely to me that the programmers "built that behavior in."

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#84

Post by jmkapz »

I wonder if this a good move for Valve. How many people will be loose interest from the game if next year OpenAI manages to pull off the 5v5 challenge, thus bringing DotA 2 to the same level as GO and chess for AI, i.e. beating the best human(s). Has there been any study on the popularity of chess after AI moved in? How about prize pools, as a large driving force of DotA 2 is the competitive scene? I suppose Valve will find out soon enough and it may be a significant event to study of the impact of AI, if only by the scale (> 10 millions players [1]) and the traceability of the metrics. What if the numbers do indeed plunge? Maybe such public display of AI might be given second thoughts. And what of outside the gaming industry?

[1] http://www.criticalhit.net/gaming/dota-2-vs-league-legends-u...

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#85

Post by hmate9 »

ronald_raygun wrote: post #24
hmate9 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5v5 is much more complex than 1v1 gameplay, it's not as simple as taking the current AI and making 5 of it.

I don't want to be "that guy", but I used to play a lot of LOL, and I feel like 5v5 is in a different ballpark in terms of difficulty than a 1v1. Even champion select is strategically intensive. TSM (one of the best US teams), lost to an amateur team because they got out done in team selection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7l30-4A6WQ

It is extremely difficult. 1v1 is like beating humans at chess. 5v5 is like beating humans at Go. That's the kind of jump it is.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#86

Post by Zarath »

DannyDaemonic wrote: post #75
habitue wrote: post #59

So an interesting thing you could do as a game company with an "unbeatable" bot is to use it to balance a metagame. Let the bots all play each other and tweak character stats etc until they win a proportional amount of the time. (This presupposes that the bot learns the game the way OpenAI claims it is, without needing to learn from player replays or from playing in a very different way than human players do with tre…

I think balance is a bigger problem than people realize. It's much harder than you'd think, and the most common way of balancing things is to simply make them more "samey". I was part of the Warcraft 3 beta. When it started all the races felt so unique. It's a bit foggy now but I think, for example, all the elves buildings - which appeared tree like - would automatically regenerate. Once they started balancing the ga…

Homogenization is a huge problem with nearly every major online game I've played (WoW, LoL, Hearthstone, etc.)

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#87

Post by dvt »

Saw this live and as someone that's played Dota for many years, it's not as impressive as people make it out to be. A Shadowfiend 1v1 is primarily a test of mechanical skill and not judgment.

A similar comparison is if a Counter-Strike or Quake bot would instantly snap to your head getting a headshot. Like, yeah, cool I guess, and it would beat 100% of human players 100% of the time, but it's not even remotely as impressive as Chess or Go. The razes in particular are "skill shots" that are sometimes hard for humans to estimate whereas for a robot it's just simple math.

I will say that the one impressive aspect of the bot was raze faking, but I think that it was one of those cases where it was "coached" (same as the creep blocking).

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#88

Post by hmate9 »

jmkapz wrote: post #84

I wonder if this a good move for Valve. How many people will be loose interest from the game if next year OpenAI manages to pull off the 5v5 challenge, thus bringing DotA 2 to the same level as GO and chess for AI, i.e. beating the best human(s). Has there been any study on the popularity of chess after AI moved in? How about prize pools, as a large driving force of DotA 2 is the competitive scene? I suppose Valve wi…

Of course it's a good move. Millions watched AlphaGo, many of whom have never played Go before. Millions, almost every single gamer will watch AI vs Dota that will be amazing marketing for Valve.

Re: OpenAI at the Dota 2 World Championships

#90

Post by mquander »

ted12345 wrote: post #83

I wonder if some of the things the guy says are misleading. In the video, we see the bot "creep blocking." For those unfamiliar with dota, players can use the model of the unit they control to obstruct the movement of allied computer controlled units in order to gain a favorable position. I suppose it's possible that over millions and millions of matches played against itself, the OpenAI bot "invented" this behavior…

Given that they said explicitly that the bot invented all of its behavior for itself from scratch, it seems more likely to me that it did so.
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