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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

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Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#451

Post by havetocharge »

bduerst wrote: post #416
humanrebar wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Racist ideas" was the wrong term to use. That was a typo. Apologies. Is "sexist ideas" fair? "Bigoted ideas"? That seems to be the implication when labeling ideas about gender "toxic". The colloquial language around this sort of thing is imprecise. That brings me to my next point: > ...and then demonstrating he's not for diversity by arguing against it. The paper seems contradictory because people have definitions i…

I'm not sure what invoking semantics on the word "Diversity" has to with this, especially since you thought I accused James of being racist (which I didn't). Despite his leaked rant, you don't know what his definition of diversity is, nor do you know what Google HR's definition is. All you know is that he was let go, the details of which are not leaked. You seem to be reading a bit more into this, which is probably w…

You nailed it with your earlier comment about how James' firing had more to do with the fact that a great deal of people has interpreted his post as offensive rather whether being offensive was his ultimate intent. His memo was not clearly written, caused a scene, and damage to the brand. If he had some great idea, he has done it a disservice, and his supporters should blame him for such bad writing, rather than Google for doing the rational thing.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#452

Post by clavalle »

Spivak wrote: post #438
clavalle wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but he has an agenda that he's promoting with this opinion piece, which, as someone who disagrees with him, has some pretty obvious holes which I point out.

Right, but the issue right now is that everyone is pushing an agenda. The only constant is the literal text and the current research which, by accounts from qualified people, don't seem to be in conflict. In the conversation of this issue the facts, what tribe you belong to, and what ought to be done in response to them have been tied together. Unless we can disconnect those everyone's reality is going to be shaped b…

It's strange to me that people don't recognize the disconnect within the memo itself: Basically, it starts off by saying 'Statistics of the general population don't have anything to say about individuals.' Then turns around and says 'Here's a bunch of statistics on the general population that show why there are fewer individuals in various sought after positions.'

It's like a spouse saying "I know being poor doesn't make you a bad person but here's a bunch of statistics showing otherwise which might make you change your mind about your poor friends."

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#453

Post by Yetanfou »

urahara wrote: post #263
Yetanfou wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even 'punitive actions' would have been wrong as their is no punishable offence. Google supposedly wants to have an open culture so they should just have accepted the 'manifesto' as part of this open culture, something to use in discussions on the subject matter. Any other reaction - and certainly the current reaction - only goes to show the truth of the accusations about Google not having an open culture.

Open culture does not mean that actions that make environment more hostile to some group inside the company should not be punished. The 'memo' definitely did that to his female coworkers. That's why the story is not about open culture or freedom of speech, but in the first place about creating unhealthy environment for a particular group inside the company and setting a really bad precedent. Maybe the guy meant well,…

In what way did that memo make the environment 'more hostile to... his female coworkers'? I read the thing from start to finish and back again, checked the references and did not find anything which would serve to create a 'hostile environment'. Yes, he does question some of the programs at Google which discriminate against men (by refusing them access to resources solely based on their gender) but that criticism does not create a hostile environment in itself. Actual discrimination (against any group) can create a hostile environment. I do not see where he discriminates against women - or any other group for that matter.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#454

Post by ltrcola »

manigandham wrote: post #423
dahart wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I think you misunderstood the memo. The memo is making a biological correlation. It suggests that the current distributions might accurately reflect differences in biology. Nature vs nurture is completely the point here, Damore argued that nature is the primary force, not nurture, and therefore we should stop nurturing women in tech.

As long as an individual person is the sum of both nature and nurture, then regardless of the exact ratio of influence, nature will continue to make a difference. > Damore argued that nature is the primary force, not nurture, and therefore we should stop nurturing women in tech. No, he argued that nature in part, may explain the gender mismatch. That really cant be denied. It was also specifically talking about inter…

Actually, if you read it closely, this is not true. True, he does suggest a lot of potential actions that could create a more beneficial tech culture for women, but then he goes on to suggest that Google needs to determine if these types of changes would impact Google's productivity in a negative way.

This is a pretty heavy implication that these programs do not in fact have any value and that diversity is not valuable. I can agree that a perfect 50/50 split is unattainable and the wrong goal, but there are studies that show diversity confers an advantage. And as Yonatan points out, I think the author has a misunderstanding of what is valuable from an engineering culture perspective.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#455

Post by ltrcola »

endorphone wrote: post #430
dahart wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The overweight example was an attempt to clarify that even though statistical averages say something about a group, it does not say something about the individual, i.e the google females should not feel singled out by statistical averages. Right. And what I've been trying to say is that the statistical averages aren't the offensive part. That's a straw man. Google women don't feel offended when they're told they're…

You intentional misinterpret the discussion. Well hopefully intentional, because otherwise it would reflect very poorly on you. Let me use another example: The NFL has no rules against women playing. None. Yet 100% of players are male, because biologically the exceptionally large and athletic tend to be male. I'm male, so does that mean that I could be an NFL player? Of course not, and I in no universe am in that rea…

Where is the evidence that any of these biological differences actually do cause women to choose tech careers less? Sure there are links to studies about the differences themselves, but that's it. And in fact, if you look at the changing makeup of Com Sci majors and programmers over the last 60 years, it seems to be a slight possibility at best and disingenuous at the worst.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#456

Post by ltrcola »

ghaff wrote: post #349
serf wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting That's part of the problem. Lots of people associate Google with research and discourse akin to a college campus without realizing that, unlike a college campus, they and their free discourse are not protected in any meaningful way. "Let's be open and transparent and have an open and transparent culture... but don't say things that might hurt our shar…

Unfortunately college campuses don't protect free discourse for certain stripes of political opinion very well these days either. I agree with your broader point though. Different companies are more or less tolerant of free-wheeling discussion that may not reflect an official company position. But, at the end of the day, if you cause embarrassment (especially as a non-exec, non-critical employee) at most companies, y…

I don't think they necessarily can, in the interest of fostering a welcoming and safe environment for students to learn. Example: "Let's not be scared of having an open, honest, and frank discussion of how Jews have caused the decline of the country."

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds and why a university could not in good faith legitimize the proponents of that theory? Now I'm not saying all issues are as black and white as that, but it's clear to me that there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere. Any particular issue probably has differing opinions on whether it crosses the lines. But anything that is abusive towards women, minorities, trans people, etc. as people is dangerous ground and I can't argue with not supporting that.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#457

Post by clavalle »

Spivak wrote: post #441
clavalle wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying anything different from 50-50 is immoral but that anything different (in this case vastly different) than 50-50 deserves some attention. I don't think announcing a policy of hiring 50% women is necessary. Like you said, it is 'almost certainly skewed due to gender biases' so the obvious way forward is to try to track down those biases and remove them from the process. There is also some…

> anything different than 50-50 deserves some attention. If what these researchers are saying about preferences is true you should be more suspicious of an exact 50-50 split than any other because it suggests that people are pulling the strings behind the scenes to make it so.

Well, the current research only shows weak tendencies that admit to wide variation. It shows what /is/ and /has been/ not what /could be/.

One thing that really bothered me about the memo is how Damore kept repeating that those he was speaking against believe /only/ culture and environment lead to differences. That he was more enlightened and believe that other things like biologically based preferences might have an effect too.

Well, of course, human beings are a complex interplay of biology and ecology and self-determination! The question is one of where the balance is when talking about individuals up to company size groups. I don't think anyone would argue against biology having some effect on behavior. But there are still open questions about where biology stops and environment begins; how much an effect can self-determination within and individual and the group can override those biological and environmental aspects to radically change outcomes (a distinguishing feature of human sapience is the ability to reflect and change, after all.)?

I am not saying Damore is lying but he sure chose what aspect of the truth to show very carefully which, in some ways, can be worse. It gives the veneer of reasonableness and logic but, in only showing part of the picture, hides the greater truths.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#458

Post by ltrcola »

wonderwonder wrote: post #374
luckydude wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the right move would have been to take Damore aside, say "dude, you stirred up a mess. You aren't wrong but the mess is a PR disaster. How about we hand you a big pile of money, you go find your next job elsewhere, and we agree not to throw mud at each other?" I can see not doing that when you are cash poor but Google is paying engineers as much as $600K/year in total comp, they could have landed $10M on Damore a…

I'm pretty amazed how badly google dropped the ball on this. They could have easily made the problem go away, likely with a few conversations where they agree to sit down and listen to his concerns upon his first submission of them to the diversity team or as you suggested a check and NDA. Whoever runs the diversity team should absolutely lose their job for letting this get to this point. Following that whoever decid…

I actually find that highly unlikely. Look how fast Damore has been involved with the conservative media. That aside, if he was really convicted in his opinion, do you think he would take the money?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#459

Post by ghaff »

ltrcola wrote: post #456
ghaff wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately college campuses don't protect free discourse for certain stripes of political opinion very well these days either. I agree with your broader point though. Different companies are more or less tolerant of free-wheeling discussion that may not reflect an official company position. But, at the end of the day, if you cause embarrassment (especially as a non-exec, non-critical employee) at most companies, y…

I don't think they necessarily can, in the interest of fostering a welcoming and safe environment for students to learn. Example: "Let's not be scared of having an open, honest, and frank discussion of how Jews have caused the decline of the country." Do you see how ridiculous that sounds and why a university could not in good faith legitimize the proponents of that theory? Now I'm not saying all issues are as black…

By and large, I do think that college students do need to be able to deal with viewpoints that hurt or offend them. That doesn't include signs on their dorm doors or people getting in their faces but it does include speakers who they may not like.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#460

Post by manigandham »

ltrcola wrote: post #454
manigandham wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as an individual person is the sum of both nature and nurture, then regardless of the exact ratio of influence, nature will continue to make a difference. > Damore argued that nature is the primary force, not nurture, and therefore we should stop nurturing women in tech. No, he argued that nature in part, may explain the gender mismatch. That really cant be denied. It was also specifically talking about inter…

Actually, if you read it closely, this is not true. True, he does suggest a lot of potential actions that could create a more beneficial tech culture for women, but then he goes on to suggest that Google needs to determine if these types of changes would impact Google's productivity in a negative way. This is a pretty heavy implication that these programs do not in fact have any value and that diversity is not valuab…

I didn't see that clause about productivity, can you quote that piece of the memo? https://diversitymemo.com/

Yonatan's response was an emotional tirade, refusing to debate any of the cited research and using a different context of empathy. Nobody is debating the value of empathy in engineering (and it's good to have for any job and life in general, nothing specific to tech), but empathy in setting policy is completely different.

Rules should be set based on rational analysis instead of feelings. We argue for science/math-based policies in government so asking for the same in such a large corporation with regards to such a sensitive subject seems perfectly logical.

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