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How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

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Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#41

I would say that most institutions that exist for moral edification -- religions, Boy Scouts, civic clubs -- do essentially the same thing which is align the attitudes of the weaker to the benefit of the stronger.

Much the same way that popular media has sold socially-acceptable prepackaged rebellion for the mollification of disgruntled adolescents (and adolescents-at-heart) for decades...

>socially-acceptable prepackaged rebellion

I am having a hard time coming up with an example of this.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#42
post #35

If it can be sold and used as a tool for subjugation humans will quickly determine and optimize the ways in which to do so. That's the beauty of capitalism--or possibly even economics in general--it acknowledges and respects nothing that falls outside of its own scope. No matter how ancient, sophisticated, sacred, or meaningful a practice may have been--no matter what reverence our ancestral betters may have applied…

So corporations find that mentally healthy employees are more productive/valuable so they promote mental fortitude. Somehow anti-capitalists spin even that into some deep evil. Ridiculous.

The point is that corporations encourage mental health only inasmuch as it promotes their own ends.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#43

If it can be sold and used as a tool for subjugation humans will quickly determine and optimize the ways in which to do so. That's the beauty of capitalism--or possibly even economics in general--it acknowledges and respects nothing that falls outside of its own scope. No matter how ancient, sophisticated, sacred, or meaningful a practice may have been--no matter what reverence our ancestral betters may have applied…

> it acknowledges and respects nothing that falls outside of its own scope I would like to point out that this is a truism. To a hammer, everything is a nail. To an earthworm, everything is dirt. To gray goo, everything is prime material for making more gray goo. To capitalism, everything is whatever capitalism needs to consume in order to make more and more of whatever it is it wants to produce. Systems of not-infin…

You are correct. Jean Baudrillard wrote a book about this called Impossible Exchange, that I recommend.

The issue I find with capitalism is that it attempts to swallow all other systems. For instance, consider another system religion--it is not uncommon for this system to have, overlaying it, a role in the capitalist system--the capitalist system's operation and the religious system's willingness to participate becomes prerequisite to the religious systems being able to operate or function at in the first place--just as the earthworms continual existence is secured only in so far as the dirt isn't suddenly translatable into economic value and consumed for profit. It's like capitalism is an unconscious dogmatism that everyone participates in because...and that why remains fuzzy.

I just don't appreciate the way capitalism, when interfacing with other domains, effaces all their values and meaning--though I suppose you could levy such criticism against any system, i.e. a closed religious system presumably wouldn't read any meaning into your available capital (ah, but so many of them do!), just as capitalism wouldn't read any value or meaning into your practiced religion. Though of course these things are not clearly demarcated and manipulate each other.

Thanks for pointing this out. It has helped me consider this further--as always, surprise surprise, things are more complicated than I'd first thought.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much the same way that popular media has sold socially-acceptable prepackaged rebellion for the mollification of disgruntled adolescents (and adolescents-at-heart) for decades...

>socially-acceptable prepackaged rebellion I am having a hard time coming up with an example of this.

Wild hair, Hot Topic, believing in politics contrary to the area you're in.

It's rebellion, but acceptable compared to bombing state offices or somesuch.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it acknowledges and respects nothing that falls outside of its own scope I would like to point out that this is a truism. To a hammer, everything is a nail. To an earthworm, everything is dirt. To gray goo, everything is prime material for making more gray goo. To capitalism, everything is whatever capitalism needs to consume in order to make more and more of whatever it is it wants to produce. Systems of not-infin…

You are correct. Jean Baudrillard wrote a book about this called Impossible Exchange , that I recommend. The issue I find with capitalism is that it attempts to swallow all other systems. For instance, consider another system religion--it is not uncommon for this system to have, overlaying it, a role in the capitalist system--the capitalist system's operation and the religious system's willingness to participate beco…

> The issue I find with capitalism is that it attempts to swallow all other systems.

Don't mean to be "that guy", but that's also pretty common with most automata, including living organisms. Run the code till the wheels fall off, and then either find a different thing to consume, or adapt to the new situation, or die.

> It's like capitalism is an unconscious dogmatism that everyone participates in because...

Because it's the current dominant paradigm.

Back in the day, the dominant paradigm was pharaohs ruling the realm from giant stone palaces, and armies of slaves raising monuments for the glory of the god-emperor. Everyone participated in it, like it or not, because there was no real choice.

Same now. You could play within the system, or you could go off dancing with wolves.

Or you could try to change it, but that in reality is orders of magnitude harder than it seems - unless you happen to be the unwitting or semi-witting agent of the great currents of history.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For the true capitalist What percentage of the US population do you believe falls into this category?

None. I mean it less a concrete instantiation and more as an abstract type that rises as a side effect of the system. Jeff Bezos, to unfairly use him as an example, I doubt has any desire to efface the significance of historical human practice. I doubt he has a vendetta against the subtle social dynamics and sphere of relationships that are established between localized mom and pop shops and customers and that often…

>Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand"--there's no need to worry about economy because it will "regulate itself" because it is predicated on trade a "natural phenomena"

The great part about this is that Smith himself, never mind his contemporaries and critics of his political economy (Marx and Engels) was concerned:

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all." (From Smith's The Wealth of Nations)

Great misconceptions you mentioned indeed exist - this idea that capitalism is "people buying and selling", that capitalism is "natural", and that because it is "natural" it is therefore desirable or good.

This view generally depends on ignorance of various historical developments (such as enclosure in Western Europe) and what distinguishes capitalism from other earlier modes of production.

I've thought it strange that one might compare Smith's "invisible hand" to Hegel's "world spirit/geist", and lead to very different conclusions even by considering a force figured to be supernatural but effected through the agency of humans.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#47
post #42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So corporations find that mentally healthy employees are more productive/valuable so they promote mental fortitude. Somehow anti-capitalists spin even that into some deep evil. Ridiculous.

The point is that corporations encourage mental health only inasmuch as it promotes their own ends.

At least they're promoting mental health! If there is a natural law then what is in the best interest of the worker is in the best interest of lawful business. And since anything that goes against the natural law ultimately destroys itself, as Aquinas explains, a lawful business is the only kind of business you want.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For the true capitalist What percentage of the US population do you believe falls into this category?

None. I mean it less a concrete instantiation and more as an abstract type that rises as a side effect of the system. Jeff Bezos, to unfairly use him as an example, I doubt has any desire to efface the significance of historical human practice. I doubt he has a vendetta against the subtle social dynamics and sphere of relationships that are established between localized mom and pop shops and customers and that often…

The capitalism that you deride with the Amazon/Bezos example is the same exact capitalism that allowed the mom and pop place to have ever sold anything in the first place. So you will need to expand your argument to be in opposition of them too.

Capitalism (and relatively free trade) is the only mechanism in history to have ever pulled large quantities of people out of grinding poverty. You lament the loss of the (capitalist) mom and pop shop, where's your lament for the loss of having to plow your own field just to avoid starvation? Where's your lament for having to dig coal out of the ground with a shovel and pick just to burn to keep your home warm in the winter?

I agree that we've lost a lot of social worth in the form of our real life social networks, but the primary culprit there is government. Government guarantees you a retirement fund, savings rates plummet, and people don't bother to have enough kids to make sure they're taken care of. Government guarantees your parents an income, so you don't have to take care of them. Government feeds the poor, so there's no need for you to be involved in your community to aid your neighbor. Government destroyed the family by subsidizing divorce and single motherhood, creating broken homes which are factories for poverty and misery. But sure, the real problem is Jeff Bezos is part of the machine that is improving the standard of living for all humanity.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. Jean Baudrillard wrote a book about this called Impossible Exchange , that I recommend. The issue I find with capitalism is that it attempts to swallow all other systems. For instance, consider another system religion--it is not uncommon for this system to have, overlaying it, a role in the capitalist system--the capitalist system's operation and the religious system's willingness to participate beco…

> The issue I find with capitalism is that it attempts to swallow all other systems. Don't mean to be "that guy", but that's also pretty common with most automata, including living organisms. Run the code till the wheels fall off, and then either find a different thing to consume, or adapt to the new situation, or die. > It's like capitalism is an unconscious dogmatism that everyone participates in because... Because…

> Same now. You could play within the system, or you could go off dancing with wolves.

That's the issue, though. You can't decide to opt-out of society without first playing into it. In ancient Egypt, with fewer people and more natural resources, maybe it was possible to leave your local village and go out into the wilderness. That doesn't seem possible today, both because "wilderness" is largely owned by private individuals or government.

Re: How corporates co-opted mindfulness to make us bear the unbearable (2015)

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None. I mean it less a concrete instantiation and more as an abstract type that rises as a side effect of the system. Jeff Bezos, to unfairly use him as an example, I doubt has any desire to efface the significance of historical human practice. I doubt he has a vendetta against the subtle social dynamics and sphere of relationships that are established between localized mom and pop shops and customers and that often…

The capitalism that you deride with the Amazon/Bezos example is the same exact capitalism that allowed the mom and pop place to have ever sold anything in the first place. So you will need to expand your argument to be in opposition of them too. Capitalism (and relatively free trade) is the only mechanism in history to have ever pulled large quantities of people out of grinding poverty. You lament the loss of the (ca…

You bring up good points, but there is such a thing as nuanced argument, and we can make distinctions between late and early capitalist models to avoid throwing out mom and pop with Jeff.

I'm not going to argue that capitalism does not bring benefits, it certainly does, I don't think anyone could deny that, but just because it has brought many benefits does not imply:

a.) That its negatives should be ignored or considered negligible by default. (I hear fascist states are highly organized and effcient, surely this benefit outweighs all the censorship, restrictions on freedom, etc. that often accompany this increased organization and efficiency?) b.) That it is the only system that could bring such benefits. c.) That there are no better models. d.) That history is static and the model that works today is also sufficient for the future.

Because none of these hold I think it's worthwhile to call capitalism, and other systems, into question and see if we can envision alternatives.

As far as lamenting goes--since when was it a rule that I had to approach systems with an all or nothing mentality? So because I dislike one side effect of capitalism I have to dislike all of its side effects? Huh?

Doubtless Amazon is convenient, but you cannot deny that the Amazonian dominance (hah) has indeed erased the social relationships from early capitalism that I brought up. I'm pointing out that while we gain plenty from Amazon-- convenience, comfort, reliability--we also have to remain conscious of what we lose: the human quality (faint as it was) that used to exist in economics and the exchange of capital.

Hell, you don't even have to interact with your computer anymore to order toilet paper from amazon, you press a button and its done. Or, more eerily, you talk to Alexa and more or less accept whatever she orders for you--think of the interaction this is replacing. Consider a fur dealer; a detailed discussion with a domain expert about furs and what suits your particular needs is replaced by a technological interface that is assumed to preselect (more or less) the best available option for you without any sophisticated dialogue about it. Sure, someday Alexa will probably be an expert in furs as well--but we are losing something when companies are allowed to grow to incredible size at global scale. The world does become incredibly convenient--every purchase is an amazon purchase so the familiarity makes it near impossible to screw up or be cheated or surprised--but it also reduces individuality and choice.

Your concerns about the government are certainly not unfounded. Based on my anecdotal experience they seem a little overblown but you are right to call these things into question. I'm not sure it needs to be one or the other. It's quite likely both the big G and capitalism are contributors to the world's woes. Note however, that most of the issues stemming from big government you mention are intimately tied up with the flow of capital (retirement fund, saving rates, income...)

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