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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

341–350 of 507 posts

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#341
post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

Travis Kalanick should have resigned as a CEO, and there is a collection of reasons why. The bar is quite high in terms of how bad things have to be for how long before pressuring a CEO out makes sense. Google does not come close to that level. If someone needs to be sacked for the diversity memo, it needs to be the author in question. At maximum, you could argue that a VP of HR could be sacked, as to 'shake up' the…

I can't locate any opinion articles in the NY Times calling for the resignation of Uber's CEO. I agree the bar was much higher in his case too.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#342
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. > This is the reality of business. Is it? If that's true, we need to be much more aggressive about corporate consolidation because the only way to make room for diversity of opinion is to make sure that there's diversity…

There's plenty of diversity of opinion within a workplace. No one is obligated to listen to it. If it's made this public so as to embarrass their own company, well what can you do. People get fired for dumber reasons.

> There's plenty of diversity of opinion within a workplace.

Then why didn't Pichai predict the blowback from firing Damore?

> People get fired for dumber reasons.

Is that a defense of Pichai and tech monoculture? People get fired for dumber reasons?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a loaded question. I didn't come to the conclusion, many others have based on his premise of using personality constructs as being caused by evolutionary psychology. You can see it in the paper how he starts with the obvious, "Men and Women are biologically different" and then jumps into observable personality differences, which are not proven to be biologically driven. It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't attri…

Saying someone has racist ideas is a loaded accusation. I think it's fair to ask for elaboration. > ...jumps into observable personality differences, which are not proven to be biologically driven. Some personality differences in populations are supported by some studies. He cites studies about personal interests, for example. It's possible that he goes too far (scientifically speaking) with some conjecture, but he w…

>Saying someone has racist ideas is a loaded accusation. I think it's fair to ask for elaboration.

Except I didn't accuse James of having racist ideas, I pointed out that his opinions are toxic to his coworkers. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It's true that he attempts to check himself throughout the paper, but it's contradictory because he then proceeds to take it too far. It's the equivalent of saying, "I'm for diversity, but...." and then demonstrating he's not for diversity by arguing against it.

Which is why this paper is a rambling rant from someone who chose to commit career suicide for his opinion, and it's surprising that the media is still focused on it.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The memo appears to be based on actual real science that seems to be the consensus. No. See this wired article, his view is not consensus. I do agree that it was pretty poorly made though! Professor Gina Rippon, Emeritus Professor of Cognitive Neuroimaging at Aston University in Birmingham, said it was surprising how much of the research Damore misinterpreted or got wrong. She added that sex differences backed-up by…

I've read that critique, but I've found numerous more critiques that have supported his position. Do I have a monopoly on saying what percentage support him - No, but it appears so far, and this may turn out to be wrong, that more academics appear to support his claims than those that deny them. They can be left to argue among themselves however just like any other scientific debate. Social sciences are further compl…

Perhaps some quality over quantity is needed, this answer on quora is the most in depth critique of the bad science in his paper I've been able to find so far:

https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

Besides it's hardly fair for us to expect academics who are critical of the memo to speak publically about the issue when the alt-right is currently doxxing people for doing just that.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#345
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of his main points in the memo is at the top:"Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. " What am I missing? This is the topic he explores the most in his memo and I don't see anything analyzing social effects. While his paper is nuanced, he basically only focuses on the biological argument and seeks to ch…

I'm not sure what your counter argument is exactly. He argued to change their diversity goals and implementation, with an intention to do a better job of getting a _more_ not less diverse company, including more woman and minorities. He did not argue to end all diversity goals outright, again that appears to be a mischaracterization.

[deleted]

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the article says: either Sundar didn't take the time to read the memo himself (which would be stupid and dangerous), or he didn't understand it (which is another way of calling him stupid), or - as seems most likely - he knowingly misrepresented it.

It may be a knowing representation, though Hanlon's Razor would indicate some lack of rigor instead.

I find it unlikely that Hanlon's Razor should apply to a case of reading comprehension by a CEO of Google. But if it does, that's a different reason to want him to resign.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#347
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you can say his argument was implied then in my eyes since he spent the first large part of the memo reviewing the biology of women and then stopped short there. No time was spent exploring inherent biases in history or how they may affecting things today. This is why those policies were put into place so why not make it the meat of the discussion. Though the implication may be that his approach will create…

He concedes the very point you mention here. That there are _real_ historical biases that should be corrected and removed. From the memo: I hope it’s clear that I'm not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn't try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority. He's saying that the inability to get to a 50/50% split on g…

"He's saying that the inability to get to a 50/50% split on gender lines may be unrealistic"

Sure that's fair. I say that as a woman - I have no expectation to reach 50/50. However it's debatable if these policies are not useful yet. My mothers generation had some crazy stories to tell and that wasn't that long ago.

"And the thesis is that it would not be created in that fashion because women self-select to enter different professions for biologically based reasons."

This may be partly true but I disagree that it forms a substantial influence given my personal experience. I would give it a 1% weight anecdotally but much more if you count that many women want to be full time mothers.

The much bigger picture in my personal experience is a slew of other things including poor information, societal and parental expectations and visions for their daughters, engrained belief systems, intimidation due to biases, sticking to comfort zones or what is more familiar and so on.

I totally agree this is a discussion worth having and at some point this policies will need to be phased out. I think here the channel in which it was broadcast to the entire company was pretty uncomfortable given its such a touchy and controversial topic.

Thanks for the discussion

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#348
post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

I know that this is an unpopular opinion on this thread, but Pinchar also made the right move from a legal perspective.

James' memo created a hostile work environment. And legally, that's all it takes to support terminating his employment for cause.

1) He claimed that biological differences were responsible for the behavior of his female co-workers. Yes, he actually says that in the section "non-bias causes of gender gap in tech." If you can't see why that's offensive, try replacing that sentence with "Biological differences are responsible for the behavior of blacks. Or latinos." Legally, this single section, by itself, disseminated on an internal company board, was enough to create a hostile work environment for his female co-workers.

2) Then he goes on to say that "diversity" candidates get special treatment. They get a lowered bar. His words, not mine. So now he's implying that many of the "diversity" candidates only work at Google because they weren't held to the same standards. And unlike his earlier statements about biological differences not applying to any specific individual women, he doesn't qualify this statement--so he's lumping all of his female and non-white co-workers together. This section, on its own, would also be enough to create a hostile work environment for all of his female and non-white co-workers.

3) Then he goes and says the Left denies science on IQ and sex. And that their behavior has created a "psychologically unsafe environment." This, by itself, would also be enough to create a hostile work environment for all of his co-workers that would define themselves as liberals. (Note: there's a reason that most companies don't allow overtly political activities or expression like this in the workolace--it's to prevent political hostilities from dividing the workplace.)

That's 3 things he said that legally would have justified firing him. It doesn't matter whether science supports the broad statements or not. It doesn't matter whether his suggestions at the end or good or not. It doesn't matter whether Google leans left or oppresses conservative expression. What matters is that he created a hostile work environment for large swaths of his co-workers with these 3 statements.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#349
post #303
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting about company policy to a broad company mailing list staying internal either doesn't mind being fired or is an idiot.

>Anyone who is willing to bet their job on a controversial posting That's part of the problem. Lots of people associate Google with research and discourse akin to a college campus without realizing that, unlike a college campus, they and their free discourse are not protected in any meaningful way. "Let's be open and transparent and have an open and transparent culture... but don't say things that might hurt our shar…

Unfortunately college campuses don't protect free discourse for certain stripes of political opinion very well these days either.

I agree with your broader point though. Different companies are more or less tolerant of free-wheeling discussion that may not reflect an official company position. But, at the end of the day, if you cause embarrassment (especially as a non-exec, non-critical employee) at most companies, you're expendable.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. Well I'm saying it does not. Obviously we disagree about what the scientific research says.

Could you link to these research papers you are mentioning?

See citation above. I'm saying its much too strong a claim to go from this paper to the conclusion that women are biologically less inclined to engineering.

EDIT: To be consistent with my original statement (see child)

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