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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

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Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#311

Post by LunaSea »

mwytock wrote: post #304
LunaSea wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something being offensive doesn't mean it's wrong or that it shouldn't be debated.

Well, saying things that are clearly wrong and offensive to large numbers of people is typically looked down upon amongst educated people and highly discouraged at the workplace. For example, think of other stereotypes about other groups (blacks, hispanics, jews) and think about what the response would be if an employee was publishing 10 page manifestos with loosely connected scientific arguments in support of these…

There is nothing that is clearly wrong about the memo in itself and lots of Googlers actually voiced support for it and agreed. So your comment would be equally offensive to them because you call them uneducated and their opinion invalid.

Creating a strawman argument around racial stereotypes is just an added layer of misdirection and tastelessness.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#312

Post by Hikikomori »

taysic wrote: post #233
where_do_i_live wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You overgeneralize and mischaracterize the memo with your claims, which leads me to suspect you never read it. >Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology He never claims there are no other influences at play - From the memo; note the works "in part" and "may explain" - Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in…

One of his main points in the memo is at the top:"Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. " What am I missing? This is the topic he explores the most in his memo and I don't see anything analyzing social effects. While his paper is nuanced, he basically only focuses on the biological argument and seeks to ch…

My main take-away reading it was that he argued for diversity in thought instead of mandated diversity that looks good in a picture or in statistics.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#313

Post by Caveman_Coder »

wmil wrote: post #293
Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

At the same time, Google should also pull in and disciple their employees that were rabble-rousing about the memo on social media. They aren't doing that and it's creating a perception of unfairness.

> "They aren't doing that and it's creating a perception of unfairness."

They have already been doing this...after the election a lot of my conservative co-workers at Google admitted to feeling "harassed" and "targeted." The memes posted on Memegen, the discussions on eng-misc, as well as the terrible TGIF (where the message VPs sent was basically that "Google" supported Hillary and "We" lost and it was going to be "Okay"). The unfairness is already there, this just highlights it even more.

TLDR:

1. Guy has conservative opinion against the current norms = Fired.

2. Numerous posts on Memegen/eng-misc/internal message boards hostile towards conservatives (including posts made by managers) = no action

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#314

Post by ta2017 »

dahart wrote: post #305
endorphone wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. I'm a white male. I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man. This means positively nothing when comparing me with a given Asian, however. That is the root of this discussion that so many so profoundly miss. The average Google male is not…

> He was not saying that women who work at Google are at a biological disadvantage, in any way, and that is a perverse misreading. He was saying that on the whole there's a biological reason when you roll the dice enough that more males are suitable for that work. I don't understand what you said there, can you elaborate? What is the difference between males being more biologically suitable and females being at a dis…

Suppose you have one million red cars and one million blue cars.

Red cars get better gas mileage on average.

Suppose you select the 100 red cars with the best gas mileage among the red cars and the 100 blue cars with the best gas mileage among the blue cars.

Which group of 100 cars has better average gas mileage?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#315

Post by KirinDave »

imh wrote: post #285
KirinDave wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was not saying that women who work at Google are at a biological disadvantage, in any way, and that is a perverse misreading. Quite frankly: many people do. Some of them are at Google. James chose to run headlong into this discussion without any practical knowledge of the discourse. His point was poorly delivered precisely because it leaves open such radical room for misrepresenting it. Discussions of social iss…

>No one owes James a charitable reading. A charitable reading isn't something that's owed. It's something that almost universally helps discourse. Communication is hard. We're always willing to give Us a charitable reading, and it's a damned shame people are so unwilling to afford that to Them, regardless which side of anything you're on.

Right, but anyone familiar with this larger discussion read James's memo and knew, immediately, that he simply failed to do any research or contribute anything meaningful.

I certainly did my best to ignore it. It was poorly informed, poorly considered. His firing was inevitable and possibly even what he wanted. Certainly I can't imagine a more effective way to get fired at Google.

Since James didn't do the courtesy of being informed, it seems odd to demand that everyone offer him the courtesy of finishing his argument for him

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#316

Post by bjl »

bllguo wrote: post #250
bjl wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The papers he cited are still extremely controversial, they aren't settled science at all. The rest of his sources were Wikipedia links.

Really? Interested in hearing more. To me a big point of his is that on average, there are innate differences between the sexes, which policy should acknowledge. Which, afaik, is scientific consensus. Yet not a single person I've read that criticizes the memo will acknowledge this.

Its simply not scientific consensus that the kind of differences he was positing actually exist. A handful of studies with tiny sample sizes and questionable statistical techniques does not a consensus make.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#317

Post by guelo »

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #161
guelo wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you have unfounded biases against the NYT based on the propaganda outlets you get your information from.

I agree with parent based on my own experience, and I'm sure parent bases his/her comment based on experience too. I have been a NYTimes reader for a while and still read some of their less political articles, but when it comes to political pieces I stay away from them because I get nothing new, most of their articles are obviously left biased (For the record, I am NOT right wing. I just appreciate unbiased journalis…

Well I do read NYT's political pieces and haven't ever noticed any biases against conservatives.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#318

Post by dropstickle »

dahart wrote: post #305
endorphone wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. I'm a white male. I know that the average Asian has a higher IQ than the average white man. This means positively nothing when comparing me with a given Asian, however. That is the root of this discussion that so many so profoundly miss. The average Google male is not…

> He was not saying that women who work at Google are at a biological disadvantage, in any way, and that is a perverse misreading. He was saying that on the whole there's a biological reason when you roll the dice enough that more males are suitable for that work. I don't understand what you said there, can you elaborate? What is the difference between males being more biologically suitable and females being at a dis…

Let's say you are an american. 60% of americans are overweight. Does that mean you are overweight?

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#319

Post by [deleted] »

Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

[deleted]

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#320

Post by badloginagain »

Shank wrote: post #8

Honestly, I think he made the right move just from a PR perspective. His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. The author of the manifesto caused Google a PR disaster and created a huge state of internal conflict, valid or not. The shareholders are probably really happy that their CEO removed a person who managed to get Google so much bad press in so little time. This is the reali…

Travis Kalanick should have resigned as a CEO, and there is a collection of reasons why. The bar is quite high in terms of how bad things have to be for how long before pressuring a CEO out makes sense.

Google does not come close to that level. If someone needs to be sacked for the diversity memo, it needs to be the author in question. At maximum, you could argue that a VP of HR could be sacked, as to 'shake up' the hiring processes and address any issues in it.

This does not go to the CEO. More damage would be done by his leaving than him staying. He reports to the shareholders, not to the moralists.

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