Live data from Hacker News

Ad blocking is under attack

blog.adguard.com

231–240 of 598 posts

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#231
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the challenge here is that "the DMCA" is a number of clauses. People who are "against the DMCA" often turn out to have an incoherent position, at least from a legal standpoint, when it turns out they just disagree with one of the contentious clauses. This would in fact be the most contentious clause, the one about being able to take down tools that enable circumvention, the one that is historically the one th…

The DMCA does make distributing circumention measures illegal, but I can't find anything in the law, or discussions of it, saying that the takedown process applies to circumvention measures. The takedown process says an ISP like Github is not liable for copyright infringement if they respond to takedown notices, which is what creates the takedown process. It doesn't say anything about circumvention measures and liabi…

As I added after you replied, I agree that this is an improper use of the takedown procedures. However, your reward for successfully armchair-lawyering that may be a full-on Federal lawsuit.

Also, I agree that Easylist itself may still not be a lawsuit target. It simply makes a claim about a certain domain, it doesn't do any access circumvention itself based on that claim. But if Easylist isn't, the ad blockers using it certainly would be. And that alone would change the dynamics of the situation quite a bit.

I hate to say it because I like adblockers too, but it is frankly very likely that when the advertising industry finally makes the push against them that by current law, it will indeed turn out that it is illegal to use ad blockers on sites that take active measures to ensure you view ads [1]. Again, don't mistake me saying this for endorsing it, but I think it's a very plain and obvious reading of not just the DMCA, but even something as fundamental to our legal system as common-law contracts... if a website wishes to make viewing their content conditional on viewing an ad, they can do that, just as they can make viewing their content conditional on paying them money, joining a club, or anything else that qualifies as "consideration" [2]. They can also place further restrictions on that content as part of that content. Any argument in favor of ad blocking that would also explain why either Netflix customers have the legal right to retain copies of the movies, or in the most extreme cases, explain why everybody has the legal right to retain copies of Netflix movies, should be discarded as an argument that proves too much [3].

I'd suggest the ad blocking community and the interested tech community at least wargame out the plan for if they lose the legal cases, because I would personally put that at somewhere around 90% probability if any of them ever go to court. Even with the EFF supporting it, I fear the EFF would pretty much be reduced to making very handwavy arguments about fundamental rights and basically pounding on the table, because in my considered opinion they really won't have much else. And even if they are correct, courts tend not to take much account of those arguments.

[1]: If the judgment goes really bad, it could even be illegal to bypass sites that don't try anything explicit. However there is a very good argument here that there is a history on the internet of assuming more rights rather than fewer if you don't assert yourself, such as the fact that browsers generally render things differently anyhow, the long history of search engines, the needs for accessibility software to render pages fundamentally differently anyhow, etc. I think there's a good chance no judge would want to overturn that consensus as it's now around 25 years old.

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration

[3]: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/13/proving-too-much/

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#232
post #206

I have a very unpopular opinion that pulls me in two directions. Advertisements have exceeded the point of being a nuisance for many years. But adblocking is a fight that solves symptoms and will affect more than just advertising in a negative way. The best parallel I can draw is to the Napster era when pirating music cut off the head of the chicken in the industry. Hollywood and like were refusing to adjust to digit…

> it has become more difficult for artists to break into the industry

I would argue it's easier than ever for artists. Anyone can easily get their music onto a variety of sharing and download sites. You don't need a studio to record and produce your music, you can do it on a laptop. And you don't need to make physical copies of your music anymore.

Sure it's probably hard to break out of the "noise" of all the artists doing the above. And it may be harder to actually make money as a music artist. But that's never been easy. In the old days unless you were a true supergroup the studios ended up with most of the money.

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

too fickle: half the time I endup also scrolling. ctrl-click is far more predictable. Same result, less "trying to press a thing designed to roll".

On most mouses that's not an issue (assuming no motoric problems). Ctrl-click, on the other hand, requires the use of both hands in most cases.

I've never had a mouse where it wasn't a problem. I don't buy uber-quality mouses, so I'm down in the trenches with the vast majority of mouse users with moderate-to-low quality hardware.

I'm also often using a laptop, on linux, and I do the middle-click-simulation (both buttons at once) with two hands, which is really annoying. I suppose I could fix it.

Also I always have my left hand on the keyboard, so for me it's not a problem to ctrl-click.

Ctrl+click doesn't work on a tab, though--have to hit the X.

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#234

>"This domain accepts GET and POST requests over standard HTTP ports (TCP 80 and TCP 443) via strictly web based traffic originating from browsers" lol

Where are you looking at that?

http://functionalclam.com/

The article links to a copy of the image: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5947035/29184514-2...

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#235
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which results every single time in choosing option C: the browser back button.

I always enable ads on a URL if it asks me to (provided they don't over advertise/have spammy advertisements), kind of already feel shitty about what is effectively stealing content for free so those notices just make me conscious of the guilt. I wonder how others rationalize blocking ads and not subscribing either but still feeling entitled to access the content.

I block all ads because my safety is a higher priority than the site's profitability. Internet ads are a malware vector, with no accountability. Also, advertising companies have made an art out of psychological manipulation; I protect my mind by filtering their input from my senses.

Just saw your subscription update. Why would I subscribe to something that I am unlikely to return to?

The only solution that I can think of, are micropayments. Perhaps this financial pressure will motivate the powers that be to eliminate roadblocks to its implementation.

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kim should have chosen a different country. One that isn't so keen on letting the US raid their citizens.

I don't think such a country exists. The influence of American's empire, and its entertainment industry, is pretty vast.

Kim was already persona non Grata in different countries, accused of copyright infringement AND other serious crimes

He should have stayed in Honk Kong

Btw nobody could make you take down a link from a list if you host it in EU.

Not even DOJ It's perfectly legal and it's a protected right

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#237

It was admiral that did this: https://blog.getadmiral.com/dmca-easylist-adblock-copyright-... They even clearly state they used the only tool available to them, DCMA. From all the current summaries on this, DMCA does not apply to a line entry in easylist. A domain can be trademarked. This should be added back in. And if github cannot standup to DMCA abuse, then well, easylist and all other developers should be giving…

So, in that blog post, they state: "We asked them 24 days ago to remove functionalclam[.]com on the original commit." Their request is here: https://github.com/easylist/easylist/commit/1ba8d4afeec6d562... And was made by this account: https://github.com/dmcahelper So, they made a github account the same day they made the "request" with an account that in no way indicates where the request is coming from? The github p…

I wonder if folks could get sneaky and change the design from a literal url to a regular expression tailored to single out that url but would also include additional sites that are just gibberish and could be relaxed if useful sites ever do fall into the URL overlap. This might be a new line of research to craft regExs to filter out a specific string while also throwing out a bunch of sister gibberish strings that would be unlikely to be adopted simply by virtue of language.

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kim should have chosen a different country. One that isn't so keen on letting the US raid their citizens.

I don't think such a country exists. The influence of American's empire, and its entertainment industry, is pretty vast.

And this is why maybe Trump can have one good effect: By causing other countries to distance itself from the US.

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#239
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I'm getting at. The DMCA complaint should have been rejected. It wasn't because the people filtering the incoming requests are using a simple high pass filter of "is this text on this page". So, if you encode the data, you remove the ability to use the DMCA inappropriately.

There are two aspects to your question which are tangled together. 1. Can IP be encoded as a way of dodging the DMCA? a: no. 2. Will encoding the source material allow you to dodge DMCA trolls? I think the answer is again no. The tradeoff in complexity isn't worth the marginal gains. Imagine not being able to browse the code on github, for example, since it's encoded. A better response is to fight. If the DMCA has be…

>1. Can IP be encoded as a way of dodging the DMCA? a: no.

This is false if the IP being enforced is trademark (which I'm not even sure is covered by the DMCA).

Re: Ad blocking is under attack

#240

It was admiral that did this: https://blog.getadmiral.com/dmca-easylist-adblock-copyright-... They even clearly state they used the only tool available to them, DCMA. From all the current summaries on this, DMCA does not apply to a line entry in easylist. A domain can be trademarked. This should be added back in. And if github cannot standup to DMCA abuse, then well, easylist and all other developers should be giving…

This might create a new front in the war against ads. You'll have ad blockers, then they'll build in a component to block anti-adblock mechanisms, which will force the ad makers to employ more countermeasures... I don't see how the content providers will ever win this war. They have more to lose here.
Post reply on HN