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Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

nytimes.com

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Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#211

Post by humanrebar »

GreaterFool wrote: post #117

This is the first fair and balanced article on this topic I've seen. > In his memo, Damore cites a series of studies, making the case, for example, that men tend to be more interested in things and women more interested in people. (Interest is not the same as ability.) I've been trying to hammer this point to all my colleagues (in private of course, I wouldn't dare to post it on public channel due to high probability…

> Interest is not the same as ability.

I'll make a subtle point in a discussion that clearly can't handle the subtleties it already has.

Interest is not the same thing as ability, but interest is a great indicator of ability in technology, especially fast moving technology. In fact, I know plenty of people who are underemployed or underpaid that I say, "You, know, with your skills, you'd be great at writing software. Maybe you should develop an interest in coding." Similarly, people ask me, "How do I get a job in software?" and I suggest something very basic (tryruby.org, say) as a way for them to quickly figure out if they are interested. If they don't like problem solving and coding, they might be able to force themselves into qualifying for a job, but I'm not sure that's a good career strategy.

Point being, to some degree, interest is one key component of ability in software and some other kinds of technology work.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#212

Post by lobotryas »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #68
pinaceae wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not encourage men to pursue careers in nursing and teaching?

I would go ahead and say because men are just not interested in those careers as much as women. That's the whole point. And that is fine.

Exactly. No one's worried that we have too few female coal miners or garbage collectors. These are physically demanding, not prestigious and often low-paying jobs.

Hell, no one's worried that we have too few female oil rig workers and these ARE (in my understanding) high paying jobs.

But STEM? That's somehow different.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#213

Post by Ajedi32 »

taysic wrote: post #148
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

By not firing him, the same thing would have happened. Except now that vocal group would be Google employees too who feel uncomfortable at their workplace. Anti-science way? Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology? And that we've maxed on the number of woman in this field and we're now at an equilibrium determined by biology…

> Anti-science way? Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology?

First of all, the original memo said nothing of the sort.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure GP is not saying the reaction to this memo is anti-science merely because it opposes the position taken in the memo. Rather, it's anti-science because they threw all rational debate out the window and fired the guy without even trying to address the points he made.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#214

Post by teton_ferb »

Steve jobs would have fired an Apple employee for staring at him for too long in the elevator and the press would have written fawning articles about how decisive Steve is, how secretive Apple is, and how much Apple employees fear Steve.

Take any other industry: A friend of mine working for a management consulting firm was fired for losing a presentation and making a partner look bad because the company supplied laptop had a hard disk crash. People have been fired for less.

But Sundar Pichai should take personal responsibility for firing an employee who wrote a jackass memo and caused Google PR harm. If the fellow was not fired, we'd have more articles calling for Sundar Pichai's resignation for making Google a hostile place for women and adding to gender imbalance in the industry. There's no winning strategy here.

Now, if someone is calling for Google CEO's resignation for killing reader, I wholeheartedly agree :-)

Edit: A CEO's job and responsibilities are to his/her shareholders, users and employees. Not to make decisions consistent with their personality traits.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#215

Post by cookiecaper »

s73ver wrote: post #137
humanrebar wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His firing makes sense: the CEO and HR are both acting to protect the company. No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble. > This is the reality of business. Is it? If that's true, we need to be much more aggressive about corporate consolidation because the only way to make room for diversity of opinion is to make sure that there's diversity…

"No. His firing confirmed part of Demore's thesis; that Google has monoculture issues and sits in some sort of bubble." Google had to decide which they value more: Demore's manifesto, or the contributions of a third of their workforce.

Let me fix that for you:

Google had to decide which they value more: Damore's memo, or their legal defense against inevitable discrimination suits.

---

nb. Large companies are a constant target for litigants of all stripes. There are suits of all types filed against them regularly. They must be careful or, under current law, a bitter employee who was not in actuality discriminated against can successfully claim discrimination and pilfer millions of dollars from the company, inviting follow-on after follow-on. Because the current law is based upon reading in/assuming specific motives to otherwise-valid actions, companies are forced to assume a defensive legal position, such that the other side's lawyer will have a large amount of difficulty convincing a judge and/or jury that such motives were allowed or tolerated.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#216

Post by urbanj »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #119
ubertaco wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paraphrased: By and large the people outraged about this are...people we don't like, whose opinions don't matter, and who I think should be marginalized anyways. If he's the hero of people we don't like, so what.

As a Southern white male from a conservative background, I don't want to be marginalized. But when I see the rabid way people are defending the guy like he wrote the Federalist Papers, who at best is guilty of being unaware that what he was saying is controversial, I don't feel outraged if he got fired in a massive company known for its liberal views. What did he expect? He's not helping it by making himself a darlin…

> He's not helping it by making himself a darling of the right wing media. That and lowball jabs at political correctness and Marxism make it a little too obvious where his sympathies lie and if he really wanted an objective debate picking sides doesn't help.

Exactly. Retweeting people like Cernovich makes it very clear what his agenda really is

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#217

Post by where_do_i_live »

taysic wrote: post #148
endorphone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing has been a PR disaster, and amplified and exaggerated the effect of this issue (not to mention that it drew attention to other factors, like Google's institutional ageism). And while I don't want to diagnose over the internet, it seems like it's attacking someone on the spectrum for traits of being on the spectrum. By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, and doubled down on this discussion.…

By not firing him, the same thing would have happened. Except now that vocal group would be Google employees too who feel uncomfortable at their workplace. Anti-science way? Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology? And that we've maxed on the number of woman in this field and we're now at an equilibrium determined by biology…

You overgeneralize and mischaracterize the memo with your claims, which leads me to suspect you never read it.

>Do you realize how subjective this is and how impossible it is to prove that today there are no other influences at play than biology

He never claims there are no other influences at play -

From the memo; note the works "in part" and "may explain" - Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.

> And that we've maxed on the number of woman in this field and we're now at an equilibrium determined by biology?

There is no such claim of this whatsoever. Your comment is a great example of the problems with this debate.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#218

Post by lobotryas »

mwytock wrote: post #135

A lot of people on "our side" did a bad job of simply refuting the argument presented. Its straightforward to do in one sentence: "While there may be scientific evidence of differences between men and women, using these differences to conclude that women are biologically less inclined to engineering is a gross leap in reasoning that is not at all supported by the facts." Then you can go on and explain why for histori…

You start by saying something is not "supported by the facts" and then go on by talking about how it's "highly offensive" (i.e.: hurts your feelings). I just want you to meditate on this for a bit.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#219

Post by Amezarak »

vkou wrote: post #99
Amezarak wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal definitions of a hostile work environment is not simply based on how something makes you feel. It is very unlikely a hostile work environment suit for not firing Damore based on this memo would win, though of course Google might choose to settle.

> The legal definitions of a hostile work environment is not simply based on how something makes you feel. No, but the the entire point of that essay was to advance the idea that women are less successful because of their biology. [1] > It is very unlikely a hostile work environment for not firing him based on this memo would win, though of course Google might choose to settle. Any employment lawyers want to chime in…

I am not a lawyer. I'm just a guy who takes my employment rights seriously and has always tried to be up-to-date and understand them.

From my understanding, a hostile work environment is created when a reasonable person would interpret actions or speech as hostile, offensive, or intimidating, and such actions are not a one-time event, but frequent, severe, and pervasive, and they must be so serious as to change the conditions of your employment. Keeping in mind that terms like "reasonable person" are legal terms and we're not dealing in colloquialisms, it's hard to see how this memo could be interpreted by a judge as creating a hostile work environment.

Again, that's not to say people can't try to sue anyway, but in that case, there are plenty of people on the other side of the story Google should be worried about suing as well, since there appears to be some minority of (white, male) Google employees who believe (rightly or wrongly) that they are persecuted due to their gender and race, and they also claim there are written communications at Google they interpret as denigrating them. I don't think they have much of a chance either.

Re: Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O

#220

Post by ebola1717 »

WalterSear wrote: post #116
agentultra wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By firing him they made him a hero to enormous groups, To a small, vocal group. > By doing it in an anti-science, anti-evidence way There were good reasons for doing it that had nothing to do with science or evidence. There are women working at Google who do not need to be reminded of the genetic and biologic differences they have from their cishet male counterparts. If Damon had issues with the policies at Google…

He didn't circulate one. He sent it to a mailing list which purported to be a safe place for open, honest sharing of opinions regarding diversity and hiring.

There are no safe spaces in the real world
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