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The world in which IPv6 was a good design

apenwarr.ca

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Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#121

Post by beagle3 »

detaro wrote: post #117
beagle3 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. Let me try to word things a little better: What is the percentage of US homes who are on an IPv6? What is the percentage of websites on IPv6? What are the number of web site hits that are IPv6 to IPv6? (in the US? in the world?) The highest estimate I've ever seen for any of these is less than 20%, which - 20 years into IPv6, is in my opinion "not caught on". The mobile world…

Giving a user the same IPv4 address on every connection is not uncommon either. It's a policy decision made by the provider, unrelated to IPv4/v6.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. It is possible that my sampling bias is giving me a distorted view of where the world is going, but:

All local ISPs I've asked, don't give out the same IPv4 (they all charge for a fixed IP, so no guarantee you'll get the same one unless you pay; at least 3 out of the 6 actively change your IP whenever they can, to force you to pay even if you need fixed IPs for short times).

All local ISPs I've asked provide the same IPv6 prefix to a customer.

I assumed that was common practice - at the very least, more common than the other way around (fixed IPv4 when you didn't ask for it, random IPv6)

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#122

Post by jgrahamc »

vertex-four wrote: post #108
beagle3 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually never asked for Google, because I knew it worked; I've never asked for Amazon, because I assumed it worked -- only for the not-top-10 sites I use. However, I just tried amazon for the first time ever and got this: $ dig www.amazon.com AAAA @8.8.8.8 ; > DiG 9.7.1-P2 > www.amazon.com AAAA @8.8.8.8 ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER Maybe they hate my ISP, but also anything behind cloudflare…

Cloudflare does support IPv6 (has since 2012), but requires that you actually set up the AAAA record. Unfortunately many sites can't be bothered to do that despite it being a 5-minute job, since not doing it doesn't currently break anything in most cases, and might break things for the minority with broken IPv6 configuration. Cloudfront now supports IPv6, so the reasoning for not enabling it on Amazon.com is likely s…

> Cloudflare does support IPv6 (has since 2012), but requires that you actually set up the AAAA record

No, we don't. We operate a v6 to v4 gateway for you.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#123

Post by topranks »

runeks wrote: post #53
apenwarr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read about QUIC, which is designed to be able to do this, almost exactly like you describe. https://www.chromium.org/quic

I’d really like to remove the idea of a “connection” from the protocol, and leave that to the routing protocol. In other words, the proposed protocol would be purely logical, and would only define what constitutes a sender (one who can sign a packet with its source public key) and a receiver (one who can sign a packet with its destination public key). Again, I’m fairly network-ignorant, but as far as I can see this c…

You should look at I2P.

I fundamentally believe you should run your encryption over the network, and not try to bake it in.

RPKI and BGPSEC do need to happen but we're an eon away from it being a reality.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#124

Post by topranks »

runeks wrote: post #49
Gibbon1 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea. One thought would be add encryption and signing to the routing. Meaning unless you have the right permissions, your packets won't even get to the destination.

I’m not sure I follow why this would be desirable. As a sender of a packet, why would I care who routes my (encrypted) packet to its destination? Why would I want to restrict the number of possible routes from me to the receiver?

Latency, jitter, not wanting to go via country X where national security agency Y will see it......

Mostly your right though.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#125

Post by jgrahamc »

beagle3 wrote: post #112
jgrahamc wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they hate my ISP, but also anything behind cloudflare (e.g. news.ycombinator.com, and about 80% of the sites I regularly visit) doesn't seem to have an AAAA address. We provide IPv6 for all our customers by default. Some customers choose to disable IPv6 (the most typical reason appears to be they have anti-abuse systems that require the client IP to be v4). https://blog.cloudflare.com/98-percent-ipv6/

Thanks. I was aware of that, and still every cloudflared website I've ever checked was IPv4 only, for whatever reason - I assumed it was off by default, it's surprising that it's on by default and still so many turn it off. I'm even more surprised at Amazon lacking an AAAA record, though. They surely have the data to tell, and IPv6 won't improve their retail business (or they have IPv6 fraud problems that would negat…

Last time I looked >99% of Cloudflare sites have IPv6 enabled.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#126

Post by detaro »

beagle3 wrote: post #121
detaro wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving a user the same IPv4 address on every connection is not uncommon either. It's a policy decision made by the provider, unrelated to IPv4/v6.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. It is possible that my sampling bias is giving me a distorted view of where the world is going, but: All local ISPs I've asked, don't give out the same IPv4 (they all charge for a fixed IP, so no guarantee you'll get the same one unless you pay; at least 3 out of the 6 actively change your IP whenever they can, to force you to pay even if you need fixed IPs for s…

Quite likely that it varies a lot between markets, true. From what I've seen, cable providers often give you a "static" IP (I think often tied to the modems hardware ID?). ADSL providers here in Germany did commonly reset your connection and IP every 24 hours (or on manual reconnect). From what I hear not all of them do that anymore, but e.g. Deutsche Telekom seems to change IPv6 as well (probably since you're supposed to pay for business class if you want static).

And some run the connection as IPv6 only and then CG-NAT IPv4, which of course gives you a random IP again, but is even worse for P2P applications and means you can't use DynDNS etc anymore.

My personal connection has had the same IP for the past 5 years, and I think changing it would mean asking my ISP and coming up with an answer for why I need that.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#128

Post by moomin »

tyingq wrote: post #2

>One person at work put it best: "layers are only ever added, never removed." Find this in the software world as well. Something about the java culture seems especially fascinated with multiple layers of abstraction. Edit: Ok, some factions of the culture. " Convenient proxy factory bean superclass for proxy factory beans that create only singletons"

Speaking as a fan of C#, Clojure and Haskell, I'd say the problem is caused by having insufficiently powerful abstractions in the base platform.

Phil Freeman has said that there are entire libraries on npm that just implement traverse.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#129

Post by mnarayan01 »

Animats wrote: post #18

What he's really arguing for is a circuit-switched network, so that connections can be persistent over moves. He just needs a unique connection ID. One amusing possibility would be to do this at the HTTPS layer. With HTTPS Everywhere, most HTTP connections now have a unique connection ID at the crypto layer - the session key. If you could move an HTTP connection from one IP address to another on the fly, it could be…

> I'm not recommending this, but it meets many of his criteria.

Woah...déjà vu.

Re: The world in which IPv6 was a good design

#130

Post by Natales »

hueving wrote: post #55

>And nowadays big data centers are basically just SDNed, and you might as well not be using IP in the data center at all, because nobody's routing the packets. It's all just one big virtual bus network. The opposite trend is true in large data centers. L3 fabrics where everything is routed have become extremely popular because BGP (or custom SDN setups) can be used to migrate IPs and you get to utilize multiple paths…

Exactly. Virtually all new DCs are being build using Leaf-Spine architectures that leverages pure IP routing and optimize for East-West traffic internally. I'm also starting to see the rapid proliferation of L3-only SDN systems like Project Calico [1] in fairly large Fortune 100 companies, for any sort of end point, particularly containers these days.

[1] https://www.projectcalico.org/learn/

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