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A note on programmer salaries

stephaniehurlburt.com

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Re: A note on programmer salaries

#161

Post by ajdlinux »

chris11 wrote: post #84
ajdlinux wrote: post #77

I'm a junior developer in a megacorp, where I sometimes think about how I'm not getting the salary I could be getting if I moved to SF, negotiated a bit harder, pushed for quicker promotions... But I'm not the lowest paid person in the office. Even the junior devs who started well after I did and haven't had as many raises aren't the lowest paid in the office. I'm fairly sure the lowest paid people in the office are…

Developers are in a completely different situation than a lot of other people. The money we might get by aggressively negotiating would mean a lot more to other people. But refusing to negotiate or to that raise won't increase other people's salary. Having empathy with other people's situation doesn't require us to ignore our own higher salaries. Political action (whether company or government) or charitable contribu…

So, how generous are programmers as a profession?

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#162

Post by TamDenholm »

retrac98 wrote: post #108
wst_ wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only assume you earn much more as a contractor. Yet I always try to see through different angles. Are there any drawbacks of being a contractor, in comparison to full time employee?

Yes, much more is accurate. That said, it's not all roses. Drawbacks are: - Lack of job security - Loneliness (always an outsider) - More responsibilities (pension, taxes, vat returns, chasing invoices, legal etc.) It all gets pretty draining - No sick pay - Contract writing/negotiation - You often end up working longer hours to get things done and keep people happy - Getting a mortgage or loan in the UK is generally…

I suppose it all depends on your perspective, I've been a contractor for basically 12 years. I run my own business too and contracting just supplements the income. I had a permanent job once for 9 months and i bloody hated it.

I get bored of a single place after about 6 months so the constant change of contracting keeps me interested, it also means i pickup new skills and experience quite often.

I dont suffer from the feeling of lack of job security, permies can get fired if they're useless or no longer needed just like contractors can. Plus, i've never not been able to get work. I also dont suffer from lonliness, i have a community of techys i'm close with and speak to every day on slack. The taxes and various other things are a pain but i get someone else to do most of that, no sick pay isnt great, but i'm rarely sick and earn enough to offset that. The contract negotiation with recruiters i absolutely loathe. I dont tend to work longer hours than permies, i dont feel the pressure like them to stay longer than is required by my contract. The mortgage thing is something i want to start looking into soon, there are contractor friendly mortgage providers so hopefully wont be an issue.

Everything else you say is right though, however, i've absolutely no yearning for a permie job, its just not me, i dont like working for other people, which is why i take on more than just contracting and i have employees too.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#163

Post by Kequc »

Swinx43 wrote: post #97
kayoone wrote: post #60

By looking at her Linkedin, it is easy to see what companies she is talking about, some big names up there. I think her viewpoint is a bit naive though. Of course a company will pay market rate in a european city if that is what it takes to be competitive. The fact that they pay their US employees more might create tensions inside the company but in the end is just down to the fact that the market there is completely…

Out of interest which European tech hub did you move to? Berlin? I am currently looking at making a move and would love to hear some first hand experience of the tech hubs in Europe that people have moved to.

I recommend against Berlin. My experience has been there is a low amount of talent available and most jobs are in the php WordPress legacy arena. Startups are nearly impossible due to high regulation/taxation (you'll be down right surprised), employment law, beaurocracy. There are one or two large tech companies that copy startups and actually have the money to advance them ahead of yours. Investors are therefore also hesitant for good reason, creating a cycle.

You can live for fairly cheap but eventually you'll get tired of graffiti, vagrants, and all night techno parties.

Unless you're into all of that and don't have any debts. Because you'll earn as a high level developer about 2.5-3k per month net.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#165

Post by starbuxman »

spraak wrote: post #23
batman_symbol wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same experience. How do u swing a job like that/market yourself?

Well, there are a lot of remote job resources to find a company open to that. Specifically I found the position from the Hacker News Who's Hiring. I guess I did well enough with my intro letter and coding challenge to them for them to schedule an interview.

SkipTheDrive.com is a good resource for remote jobs.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#166

Post by etiene »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #119

I am continually surprised that _anyone_ in tech signs employment contracts in Europe. If you're good, and know how to work well remotely, contract work at 130-150€/hr is plentiful. Working 32 (billable) hrs/wk with 6 weeks vacation - more or less what you'd do as an Employee - that's an income between 190-220k. But every employment contract I've heard of here (France and Germany) maxes out at 90-100k for even direct…

In my case, I'm a Latin American not willing to live in the USA or in my home country, and my visa in Europe is tied to having a job. Hope this helps you getting different viewpoints :)

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#167

Post by mstade »

zerr wrote: post #135
kayoone wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Berlin, i make close to 70k which is decent here for senior devs without management responsibility i guess and that amounts to ~3300 after taxes, health insurance etc. I could save more by getting a private health insurance, but that has its downsides too. The main reason why this works is that Berlin is still really cheap compared to London but even compared to Hamburg or Munich. Rents are getting up though, sti…

The bad thing in Berlin is that 60-70K is really a ceiling, if you want to stay in non-managerial engineering, and that amount is not something unrealistic for engineers living in cheaper parts of the world working remotely, so there is not much incentive to move to Berlin. Btw, why do you find London much expensive? I mean, you can rent (or mortgage) a decent apartment in the nice district for ~600 GBP per month. An…

No way you find a nice place to live in London for £600, especially not a place of your own. If anything, you might find a room somewhere, but it's probably not going to be nice and it's likely not even going to be in London.

If you commute by long distance rail for at least an hour, an hour and a half maybe, to some small town way outside of London maybe you'll find something at that cost – but surely not in London proper.

My rents over the years in London where, per month, in order of when I lived there:

- apartment hotel studio in Limehouse: ~£2000-2500 - room in shared flat in Queensway: £1000 - 1-bed in Canary Wharf: ~£1650 (moved after a year because they wanted to back my rent by about 20%) - studio in Angel: ~£1200 - basement studio in Highbury&Islington: ~£1350

The studio in Angel was unbelievably cheap for a brand new building in a nice neighborhood. I was the first tenant. It had one of those beds you flip down from the wall kind of thing. Sounds off putting but it was actually a really smart feature, made the place feel like a 1-bed.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#168

Post by dood »

chuckit2 wrote: post #158
dood wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will just not understand why I quit "major search engine" Don't know how you got this idea. No-one will care.

You may be right. My fear is that people would assume I was sacked/forced-out for being crap though, since there is such a mystique around the company and people dream of getting a job there. Perhaps in a few more years things will tarnish a bit more.

Nah, don't worry about it. If anything people will respect you for following your passions, but more likely they just won't care. Strong developers are rare, no-one will question how they arrived in their interview room, they'll just be glad you're there.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#169

Post by mamon »

melkiaur wrote: post #145
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #119

I am continually surprised that _anyone_ in tech signs employment contracts in Europe. If you're good, and know how to work well remotely, contract work at 130-150€/hr is plentiful. Working 32 (billable) hrs/wk with 6 weeks vacation - more or less what you'd do as an Employee - that's an income between 190-220k. But every employment contract I've heard of here (France and Germany) maxes out at 90-100k for even direct…

I can't speak about other European countries, but in France, an employment contract gives you an insane amount of security. If you're made redundant, you get paid 60-70% of your salary for up to 2 years, you get loads of paid maternity leave. You get a nice state-funded pension. You get free healthcare (including dental and glasses). You get 100% sick-leave coverage. You get mandatory training. You get access to job…

You know what else gives you insane amount of security? Insane amount of money in your bank account :)

If you are working on B2B contract, making 750 euros per day you'll quickly accumulate savings, and having 100-200k euro in your bank account allows you to not be worried about where to find your next contract.

Also, if you are running business in Europe you are still paying social security fees for yourself, so you still get that "free" healthcare, pension, and even sick leave coverage.

As per mortgage, you still can have it (although with all your savings you'll probably never need it), provided that you run your business for at least a year and have regular cash flow.

The one disadvantage is that leadership roles and promotions are usually reserved for permanent employees, although some companies employ team leads or PMs on B2B contracts as well.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#170

Post by olavgg »

Swinx43 wrote: post #97
kayoone wrote: post #60

By looking at her Linkedin, it is easy to see what companies she is talking about, some big names up there. I think her viewpoint is a bit naive though. Of course a company will pay market rate in a european city if that is what it takes to be competitive. The fact that they pay their US employees more might create tensions inside the company but in the end is just down to the fact that the market there is completely…

Out of interest which European tech hub did you move to? Berlin? I am currently looking at making a move and would love to hear some first hand experience of the tech hubs in Europe that people have moved to.

I highly recommend Oslo or Stockholm, good salary and benefits. Java developers are especially in high demand.
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