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Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

juliagalef.com

81–90 of 194 posts

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#81
post #60

Note that Sundar Pichai is very clearly in category 2, i.e. he does not dismiss the memo as untruthful or expressly voices disagreement. What irks me is that the discussion in the main stream media ignores the fact that someone was fired for writing relevant information in a forum explicitely introduced by the employer to anonymously voicing workplace opinions (a "safe space"), not by "circulating a memo". Maybe disc…

What irks me is that the discussion in the main stream media ignores the fact that someone was fired for writing relevant information in a forum explicitely introduced by the employer to anonymously voicing workplace opinions (a "safe space"), not by "circulating a memo".

Citation on this point? I have been following the news on this story pretty closely and have not been able to find out much about how the "memo" was initially "published". I agree that if true, this would be relevant to whether or not he deserved to be fired.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#82

Yes, there may or may not be biological differences. Or cultural differences. In fact, it's almost certainly both, and it really doesn't matter. The single most important argument people like this ex-Googler never seem to understand is that they're confusing what is with what ought to be. If there's one defining characteristic of humanity, it's our ability to overcome biology (the 'hardware',so to speak), using our u…

> Even if there were jobs that women were less qualified for, or had less interest in, we would want lower the difference, with equal representation if possible.

I agree that a 50/50 split in men and female software engineers seems like a desirable thing. If it existed today I would not consider it surprising, and I would consider it to be a great thing. That said: is this also true for bricklayers and construction workers, who are basically 100% male? What about nurses or child care givers, who are predominantly female?

How do you decide which jobs that have gender skew warrant specific attention towards a balanced gender ratio? All of them? The ones that don't involve physical labor? In sports we accept men on average have higher physical strength and endurance than women, hence league separation, so perhaps gender skew is expected here and uncontroversial for the same reasons? What about the jobs that are particularly high paying or high status? Should it be the case that everyone should get an equal share of the pie of value for these desirable fields, but less desirable fields do not matter because of their high supply? Perhaps its just the jobs that just don't seem to make any sense as to why gender would skew them that are the ones we should worry about?

I think answering this question concretely and consistently is a pre-requisite to having a constructive debate about this subject. There is nothing to me particularly special or interesting about software engineering in particular that makes it stand out among other fields that are heavily gender skewed that do not seem to cause nearly as much debate, other than that it seems counter-intuitive that there should be any such imbalance, given the nature of the work. Perhaps that is enough, a "gut check" if a field should be gender dominated. If the "gut check" says "that doesn't make sense", we should strive for equality.

But here we are, back at a facet of the original memo's thesis: when those gut checks pass they are probably based upon internalized models we have for gender preferences. If you are being uncharitable, stereotypes. If you are being nice, statistically significant correlations of preferences tied to gender, backed by evidence.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#83
In addition to people in favor of affirmative action and people opposed to affirmative action, there's the large class of people who are in favor of affirmative action, but against the political correctness pressure of having to act like they believe this in for the benefit of all instead of the explicit benefit of the affected minority.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#84
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that communication and people skills are necessary to be a great programmer. But consider that in order to get a job as a programmer, I first had to spend 4 years taking relatively intensive courses in math and computer science (even longer if you go back to elective courses in high school), and empathy was not an important factor in getting through my coursework or examinations. Sure there are oth…

...empathy was not an important factor in getting through my coursework or examinations. When you put it that way, it is a shocking indictment of how little the current educational system actually serves the needs of the software industry. Most of us work on things that interact with, and affect, real people. Yet engineers are usually hired based on how well they can memorize data structures that they will almost nev…

Everything that everyone works on affects people. Programming is no different than any other profession in that regard.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#85
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take umbrage that its actually harmful - I'd totally get behind the idea that its a gross distraction. I really believe truly that each gender (because of biology and societal gender roles) has been given some unique problems solving gifts - and that we're shoving square pegs in round holes to gloss that over - but there is no universality here - I've seen men that are amazing at 'people' problems - and women who a…

On the contrary, it's a sign of our "evolution" that sexist ideas like the one in your second paragraph are now increasingly subject to fierce rebuttal.

> sexist ideas like the one in your second paragraph

Calling something sexist and leaving it at that isn't a rebuttal, and the more people agree with something empty, the more they have to answer for, it doesn't give a gram of weight to the thing. But you're not wrong since evolution doesn't exclude regression.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#87
Since this is a venue of free discussion, there is another near identical argument that is also completely taboo.

One possible reason there are few conservatives in top tech companies is because they don't apply as often as moderates and liberals. And this could be because of innate lower intelligent[0]

Now I'm not saying this is definitely the case at all. Just that it's a possibility that we should all really start discussing including in our work places. And rather than just flat out reject it as insulting, we should also note the good that will come from accepting it, should it be true.

At any rate, suppressing my topic would be an attack on free speech and makes those who honestly believe it feel oppressed when this view should be understood, discussed and given a platform.

[0] https://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/SPQ2010.pdf

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#88
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's uncomfortable to talk about but it's becoming increasingly important that we do. Without understanding why a phenomena like the STEM/leadership gap exists we can't hope to fix it. Diversity programs really aren't working - Google is at 80/20 for tech which is just about the same as the industry (78/22) (Department Of Labor). My policy is 'Fuck Chesterton Fences'(FCF). I don't want to live in a world of rust…

> My policy is 'Fuck Chesterton Fences'(FCF). I don't want to live in a world of rusting fences. I remember that policy from the time of rampant privatization here in Europe. "Why should the government provide this service .." - well, a few years later we knew why. It's also quite often the mentality of people that say "you know what? Our software sucks and the architecture is stupid, I will build a new, far better o…

> I remember that policy from the time of rampant privatization here in Europe. "Why should the government provide this service .." - well, a few years later we knew why.

Going roughly by what I assume to be the GP's logic then, there should be a minefield surrounding discussions of having the government provide public services at all, since, naturally, that will lead to Soviet-style communism and the deaths of tens of millions.

I'd also be wary of ascribing to large-scale political sentiment (not even shared by all) the kind of purpose and wisdom involved in engineering decisions.

As you quoted "Without inside knowledge it's hard to distinguish stupidity from good engineering" - in this case, there is no inside knowledge.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#89
post #82

Yes, there may or may not be biological differences. Or cultural differences. In fact, it's almost certainly both, and it really doesn't matter. The single most important argument people like this ex-Googler never seem to understand is that they're confusing what is with what ought to be. If there's one defining characteristic of humanity, it's our ability to overcome biology (the 'hardware',so to speak), using our u…

> Even if there were jobs that women were less qualified for, or had less interest in, we would want lower the difference, with equal representation if possible. I agree that a 50/50 split in men and female software engineers seems like a desirable thing. If it existed today I would not consider it surprising, and I would consider it to be a great thing. That said: is this also true for bricklayers and construction w…

Unless specific sexual organs are required for a job (eg surrogate mother, wet nurse), there should be no appreciable skew in any industry.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#90
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate' Imagine you have 100 people applying for 10 positions, and the demographic breakdown of applicants (based on current trends in tech) is 20 women and 80 men. Let's also say that being male or female doesn't give you any special aptitude, and that the aptitude of all candidates regardless of gender…

If the fact that the applicant population is slanted towards a particular gender means (or is caused by the fact) that it is harder for the other gender in that field, then the smaller population will in fact be better on average than the larger, because it will have taken them more motivation, determination, work and ability to win over others just to get them to where they are. At least, this seems like the most li…

> means that it is harder for the other gender in that field, then the smaller population will in fact be better on average than the larger, because it will have taken them more motivation, determination, work and ability to win over others just to get them to where they are.

Do you have any studies or statistics to back you up or is this just what you believe? Also, how does it account for males that come from a poor/under-privileged backgrounds that also requires them to have more motivation, determination, work and ability to win over others and get where they are?

> The fastest-growing companies at 200%+ growth, are 75% more likely to have a female founder.

Revenue growth is meaningless without any sort of revenue numbers to compare it against - compare growing revenues from $5,000/year to $15,000/year (200% growth) with growing from $10,000,000 to $20,000,000 (100% growth).

As a corollary to your point though, how many women founders are there in unicorns?

Unfortunately not that many: http://swaay.com/todays-unicorn-companies-where-are-the-wome...

Would such companies be more or less successful with female founders, I don't know, but I suspect gender doesn't really play much of a role, in much the same way I suspect that gender of founders doesn't play much of a role in revenue growth.

> This is probably wrong,

So you think that there is difference in ability based on gender?

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