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A note on programmer salaries

stephaniehurlburt.com

71–80 of 230 posts

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#71

I mean, it's pretty simple, but it took a long time to internalize: If you don't have anyone else making you an offer, then you're worth that amount. In this case, you were worth $42k and $56k respectively. If you'd shopped around, you'd have been worth more. But you didn't, so you weren't. That's not a bad thing, either. Security is nice, and interviews are a pain. But it really is that simple. If you don't like you…

Companies that hire consultants for tech are incompetent technically. That comment means little.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "that's what you're worth" Your argument is sound, but this is really unfortunate phrasing. It's actually what your work is worth. Not what you as a person is worth, and it's important to keep those things separate, both for sanity and rigor.

Your value to society is the value of your work which in everyone else's context is your value. No one cares if your apartment is clean which is why no one pays you to clean your apartment.

> Your value to society is the value of your work which in everyone else's context is your value.

But certainly you must interact with people outside of your job?

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#73

Any advise on how to get a wage on the ranges mentioned on the article (or in the comments) while living OUTSIDE the USA? I live in Central America, but work for a Seattle based startup as a remote contractor and make $32K. Whenever I read about "common" salaries for programmers in the US an internal conflict unleashes on me. On one side what I make is on the middle-high range when compared to the local market, but i…

Someone above made a point about how there is a big difference between your local market value and the value you bring to the company which I agree with. The way to close that gap is through negotiation and by getting past people's biases.

Even people who are generally logical will be resistant to paying a good south american developer as much as a mediocre developer who is also remote but in Seattle.

Even though I'm from SF this is strangely something I've thought about a lot. What I would do in your shoes: (1) create a nice portfolio of all your work (omit the Cisco CCNA stuff, if you are looking for work as a web developer that is actually a red flag, just put your web work and claim to have done anything you can reasonably defend in an interview), talk in aspirational language about your passion for the craft of software development and always point out every way in which you were involved in collaboration with designs are in business concerns and how that informed your more technical work because your real passion is for creating useful products that people love, not just banging out code (2) write some blog posts occasionally about functional programming and how to write better tests, (3) instead of saying you are from Central America say you are "currently enjoying living in Costa Rica (a US friendly timezone)" or just completely omit where you are and simply say you are in EST, who cares beyond that??(4) explain that you are an expert in "remote collaboration" (5) humans are experts at sniffing out non-native language speakers. Find a US Native copywriter and have them polish all your copy and pay a designer buddy to make your site look cool and modern, (6) post your resume on Hired, etc (7) ask for $175/hr but expect to accept $150 or so.

This all depends on how good you really are of course. Another US bias (possibly valid) is that php developers are paid less. Bone up on Elixir/Phoenix or another hot language/framework + react native, do a cool side project even if it is quite small.

IMO if you did all that you'd have plenty of work at high US rates. (just for comparison, $32K/yr is about $16/hr, you can definitely get up to > $100 or $150/hr)

All that investment and the resultant relationships have real value so step 2 of course is to hire a couple of your buddies who are also good at slightly better than local market rates...

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#74

It seems like these kinds of salaries only really exist for full time employees in the US. As a software architect (engineer team size ~100) in the UK I was only making £65k. I could have shopped around and got more, much more if I went to London but still nothing like I read about in the US. I ended up leaving full time employment for contracting/consulting.

I completely agree... It is even worse if you live on latin america. The really sad part is when you take into consideration that programming and CS jobs in general are one of the jobs on which you can generate the same value being on-site or at the other end of the world. So in theory there is no reason why you couldn't do the same thing someone in the US is doing and get paid the same amount. Oh well, such is life.…

>programming and CS jobs in general are one of the jobs on which you can generate the same value being on-site or at the other end of the world.

This is one of those things that seems like it should be true in principle, but doesn't seem to be true in practice. I don't believe my employer is generous. I'm certain if they could generate the same value for a significantly lower cost they would.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#76
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you'd shopped around, you'd have been worth more. But you didn't, so you weren't. Isn't that circular logic? By that logic, nothing can ever be undervalued, because its fair value is defined by how much it's sold for. If you want to go all supply-and-demand, an employee's value is still not what they request, it's what it would cost to replace them, on average

Not circular logic, it's excactly how it works. Someone offers you money for your time and if both parties find an agreement on how much that time is worth, they've determined a value that is acceptable for both parties. No one is forced to employ or be employed.

"No one is forced to employ or be employed"

Pretty sure most people who live paycheck to paycheck would disagree.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#77
I'm a junior developer in a megacorp, where I sometimes think about how I'm not getting the salary I could be getting if I moved to SF, negotiated a bit harder, pushed for quicker promotions...

But I'm not the lowest paid person in the office. Even the junior devs who started well after I did and haven't had as many raises aren't the lowest paid in the office.

I'm fairly sure the lowest paid people in the office are the cleaning contractors who come in after hours, almost certainly with far less flexibility, worse working conditions and worse job security than the programmers whose mess they vacuum.

Not that this stops me from pursuing career progression, but it'd be nice to see software developers show a bit of solidarity with people who aren't lucky enough to be able to work with tech and who live paycheque to paycheque, rather than discussing how they're going to negotiate their way up to being in the global 0.5%.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#78
post #45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not circular logic, it's excactly how it works. Someone offers you money for your time and if both parties find an agreement on how much that time is worth, they've determined a value that is acceptable for both parties. No one is forced to employ or be employed.

>no one is forced to be employed Er, can you clarify? If you don't work, you don't eat.

Like the thousands of unemployed people? Some haven't eaten for years.

That's not what he means, just like that's not what you mean.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#79
post #55

"Within a year, after leading several projects" What the hell? Is that a normal career progression for a junior developer straight out of college?

It's not uncommon to let capable junior devs run a small project with someone more experienced having oversight.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#80
> I couldn't shake that feeling I got from my first gig in programming. That feeling that I am actually the one making this work, and I'm also perfectly capable of talking with people and selling it-- and yet they make millions and I make a tiny fraction.

So... do it. The author claims to be just as good at business and selling. So... do it. If you're sour about it and think you can do it, then do it.

HN used to be a place where people understood that it took more to running a tech business than being a programmer. Pounding the pavement is hard. Getting clients is hard. Securing funding is hard. Legal work is hard. Securing staff is hard. Dealing with burn rate is hard. Finding market fit is hard. Complying with regulations is hard.

If you can do all of this (I can't - I have no entrepreneurial bone in my body, and am a lifer salaryman), then do it. It's very satisfying even if you're not made filthy rich from it. But don't sit there as a salaried employee complaining that you should be given the lion's share because you do 'all the work'. Chances are, you're missing a hell of a lot that is being done.

Thankfully the author is actually following up on this, but I see this kind of mentality a lot in our industry.

Short form: if you think you can 'do all this' and you're sour about not getting enough money for your skills, then you only have one option towards satisfaction: do it.

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