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Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

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Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#251

I am flabbergasted that as a society we aren't rushing to build a 100 metre wide telescope mirror large enough for us to directly image the spectra of the potentially habitable exoplanets around us. A telescope this large could tell us whether any of these potentially habitable planets contain oxygen, and thus, biological processes. Yet thanks to funding cuts in science the biggest telescope we have in the pipeline r…

The corresponding space telescope for exoplanet detection and spectral characterization is being planned for sooner than you may expect: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/habex/.

This, or a similar concept, is hoped to be in the upcoming National Research Council decadal survey which recommends astronomical priorities for the 2020s. Current designs require as little as 4 meters.

Stability is one advantage of space telescopes. Integration times for spectral characterization can run into days.

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Launching huge telescopes (and possibly assemble them) into space...?

No, I mean ground based telescope tech and space based tech. Both have different limits and advantages.

There is at least one space telescope that connects with ground-based telescopes using interferometry, so in some sense, they could be called one telescope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spektr-R

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#254

I am flabbergasted that as a society we aren't rushing to build a 100 metre wide telescope mirror large enough for us to directly image the spectra of the potentially habitable exoplanets around us. A telescope this large could tell us whether any of these potentially habitable planets contain oxygen, and thus, biological processes. Yet thanks to funding cuts in science the biggest telescope we have in the pipeline r…

JWST will do just this!

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#255
post #247
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes even most people in Pakistan/India have access to those, plus broadband internet. Yes I've been there. Indian here, lot of people in metro cities dont have clean water. Most middle class and rich people use water filter to clean the water in their house. Forget the villages.

Oh well I stayed in Pakistan cities and villages and farms and there's clean water, housing and mobile broadband... Sorry to hear the state in India - I incorrectly assumed they were ahead due to higher GDP per capita.

From https://www.dawn.com/news/1319157

"ISLAMABAD: Eighty-four per cent of the population does not have access to safe drinking water in a country where commercial banks posted windfall profits exceeding Rs475 billion in three years, the Senate was told on Tuesday.

Quoting a study, Provision of Safe Drinking Water, conducted by the Pakistan Council of Research in Water Resources (PCRWR), Minister for Science and Technology Rana Tanvir Hussain said only 72pc of water supply schemes were found to be functional, and 84pc of those had supplied water that was not fit for consumption."

This article was published March this year. Maybe the report in question was alarmist, I don't know.

In case dawn.com isn't a reputable source, here's a number of other articles covering it:

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/03/09/safe-drinking-wa...

http://nationalcourier.pk/editorial/pcrwr-report-eye-opener/

This one has a slightly different focus, and also links to reports claiming the same agency has found contaminations in bottled water too:

http://pakobserver.net/arsenic-detected-above-permissible-li...

http://pakobserver.net/pcrwr-declares-11-mineral-water-brand...

Here is the agency's actual report on Punjab province, with a quote below:

http://pcrwr.gov.pk/images/document/Water%20Quality/Water%20...

"The outcome of the survey conducted in the domains of 21 districts of the Punjab province, has revealed that water supply schemes are providing piped water supply for drinking purposes to meet household needs and for other multiple uses to an enumerated population of 19.017 million persons on 2408 surveyed water schemes. The survey has however, summed up that the performance of these schemes in terms of providing water in an adequate quantity and of safe quality, is extremely poor. This inability and inefficiency may be scaled from the fact that 35 percent of the schemes are presently not functioning. As a result, nearly 61 percent of the total enumerated population remains unserved by the water supply schemes. More alarming situation is that 88 percent of the functional schemes are providing unsafe drinking water to the consumers. It is also notable that, on province basis, the average water charges per scheme figure out to Rs. 64 per month. "

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could try with a much more doable planet like Mars. We could find out if long term survival is impossible, very difficult, possible but difficult, or doable with the right technologies. It's shocking how little appetite there is for redirecting 50% of the budget which is currently allocated to the military to space exploration. I understand that the military is partly a large welfare program which doesn't compete…

The military application of rockets is only reason we got the tech to reach space and military application of satellites is why we figured out how to stay there and the militaristic penis measuring between nations is only reason we reached moon. Also, - large part of budget is salaries and pensions. - looks like %budget for military is lowest it's been in 20 years, (in 2015) 16% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military…

> looks like %budget for military is lowest it's been in 20 years

The point is the size of it, not the trendline.

NASA got 2-4% to go to the moon. Right now it's at 0.5%. Imagine how much space they could do with 8%.

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#257

I am flabbergasted that as a society we aren't rushing to build a 100 metre wide telescope mirror large enough for us to directly image the spectra of the potentially habitable exoplanets around us. A telescope this large could tell us whether any of these potentially habitable planets contain oxygen, and thus, biological processes. Yet thanks to funding cuts in science the biggest telescope we have in the pipeline r…

The corresponding space telescope for exoplanet detection and spectral characterization is being planned for sooner than you may expect: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/habex/ . This, or a similar concept, is hoped to be in the upcoming National Research Council decadal survey which recommends astronomical priorities for the 2020s. Current designs require as little as 4 meters. Stability is one advantage of space telescopes…

Promising developments, but christ, could they move any slower?!

We know what technology we need to build. Why must we wait a full two more years for a report to get finished before even beginning funding proposals on which path to pursue, before beginning any construction or engineering?!

None of us are getting any younger. I know this is complicated technology to build, but contrast how fast technology moves in the valley compared to this, and you can see the ways in which NASA could really use a bit of startup hustle... (like back in the 60's, when NASA engineered and landed people to the moon within a decade.) There just appears to be no sense of urgency at all.

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless they can explain to their shareholders what the benefit of that overwhelmingly long-term investment will be I don't see it happening. Maybe after SpaceX becomes a massively profitable company in the same vein as the tech giants, but not before. Bill Gates also made it painfully clear that he wants his money to go to issues we can resolve right now here on Earth like renewable energy, clean water, fighting dise…

I've yet to see a non emotional explanation for why diversity hiring is good over meritocracy, yet that is thrust upon shareholders.

That first of all depends what you mean by "diversity hiring". You assume it is not about meritocracy, but most diversity programs are exactly about trying to cut through biases and ensure a meritocracy. I see setting the two up against each other as largely a strawman - I don't know anyone pushing diversity programs that don't believe it is about evening the playing field rather than providing anyone with an advantage above and beyond their merits (I'm sure they do exist, but I haven't met any).

Consider this: Let's assume group A and group B both follows a bell curve in terms of abilities. Let's assume they're not equal. Maybe group B is shifted so that only 3% of group B can compete with the top 10% of group A, for example.

Now, if you hire exclusively from group A, and you due to competition for resources end up hiring from the top 20% of group A, you are losing out - there are then substantial numbers of candidates in group B that outperform people you are willing to hire from group A.

That is a non-emotional explanation for why diversity is good unless we're in a world where current distribution already accurately reflects merits:

Even if you assume that there are substantial differences in abilities between genders or races, unless you can consistently rule out that anyone in these groups are able to compete on abilities, creating an environment that is non-inclusive will leave your competitors with access to better people than you have.

The best way of ruling that out, if you believe these groups have different distributions of abilities, is to carefully control for biases and recruit on ability.

Now, if you mean quotas where metrics of abilities are ignored in favour of hiring people belonging to specific groups, then that changes the issue, though sometimes such quotas can also be justified if you have reason to believe the metrics used are flawed.

E.g. in the UK private schools tend to outperform state schools on A-level grades (equivalent, roughly to SATs / high school diplomas; used for university applications), but the conditions a top student in state school works under also makes it likely that their grades under-represents their learning abilities vs. private school students under equivalent conditions - differences in class sizes and available resources does make a difference in exam performance, and if you can correct for it, it makes sense to do so. If you don't, it may make sense to use quotas to ensure you safeguard your ability to skim the best candidates from these groups.

Incidentally, taking more students from state schools would on average be likely to take more black students, for example.

My (black, female) ex is on the diversity board of a major investment bank's offices in the UK, and is struggling with exactly this: The bank in question almost exclusively hires from a set of private schools where white men dominates, and sees "diversity" as being about attracting the few black people and women from those schools, rather than hiring by ability without looking at which schools the candidates are from, which would let in far more women and black people.

This is before taking into account other factors, such as positive PR with customer groups that hold increasing importance.

In other words, there are substantial cold, hard, emotionless reasons to push for less biased hiring, and the proponents of most diversity programs believes that these will provide more diversity through meritocracy, not despite it.

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#259

Ok, let's assume we find a warm, watery planet like Earth's within ~20 light years, and we figure out a way to travel >= 50% the speed of light, making it somewhat reasonable to get there. If the planet's gravity is greater than 10% different from Earth's, or its Day/Night cycle is much different from Earth's, wouldn't it still be a nightmare to live on. Anatomically modern humans have lived on Earth for 200,000 year…

I'm going to show my nerd colors here but having a thought like this has almost ruined Star Trek for me. For me I often think about atmospheric pressure. There's no way that beings from so many different planets could exist on a single star ship set at 1 Earth atmosphere. Maybe someone knowledgeable in this space can tell me, but is a planet's atmospheric pressure reliably proportional to its mass?

Humans have a range of about .25 to 50 atmospheres of pressure, as long as you have the right amount of oxygen and not too much nitrogen.

So that particular aspect is not something to worry about.

Re: Four Earth-sized planets detected orbiting the nearest sun-like star

#260
post #176

I am flabbergasted that as a society we aren't rushing to build a 100 metre wide telescope mirror large enough for us to directly image the spectra of the potentially habitable exoplanets around us. A telescope this large could tell us whether any of these potentially habitable planets contain oxygen, and thus, biological processes. Yet thanks to funding cuts in science the biggest telescope we have in the pipeline r…

Do you realize how far away that star is? It would take 40,000 years just to reach the nearest star if we travelled at the speed of the fastest human created object in history. Why do you need to see a habitable planet soon? If you can't survive that trip, it means almost nothing.

Not at all. I don't care about traveling there, I want to know about what other life exists.

Once we find a good target, the Breakthrough Starshot program is one example of a promising project that could get us results within our lifetime.

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