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Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

juliagalef.com

11–20 of 194 posts

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#11
> His hypothesis implies that personality differences mean a smaller percentage of women will be interested in and/or qualified for a Google job than men, but that doesn’t mean any of the women at Google fall below the “qualified” threshold.

I think its fair to say that not everyone shares that view.

This is probably the key to controversy in my mind. You could read it that way.

However, you can choose to interpret the sections about 'Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate' and 'Alienating conservatives is both non-inclusive and generally bad business because conservatives tend to be higher in conscientiousness, which is required for much of the drudgery and maintenance work characteristic of a mature company.' as 'some people we're hiring don't cut it, we should hire more white men'.

That's not what it says. You don't have to interpret it that way.

...but clearly a lot of people did.

My advice? Stop defending it. You can talk about these issues without this memo.

Forget the memo. The memo was stupid and misguided. Releasing it internally at work was unreservedly stupid. ...but what's done is done.

Do you want to spend the next year talking about the memo, and the specifics of 'did it or did it not technically say such and such', or the actual issues he was trying to raise?

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#12
> However, his overall claim that there exist personality differences between genders that differentially affect men’s and women’s interest in and aptitude for tech jobs, is what people are mostly getting mad at. And that’s a claim that seems plausibly true. Not obviously true, but also not a claim you would be justified in emphatically dismissing as false, as many people have, including Google, who called them “incorrect assumptions.”

This is quite well-put, and gets at the heart of what pisses people off.

There exists a large set of hypotheses which are plausible, and not just "spaghetti-monster God" plausible, but "> 20% chance this is the case" plausible.

Many of those hypotheses, however, are shouted down as "racist", "sexist", or some other "ist" when they come up, and all of their possible costs are then listed in a litany, with all possible benefits ignored.

It's intellectually stifling, and I'm no longer interested in enabling people who use that kind of rhetoric.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#13
post #9

> This topic is harmful to people and we shouldn’t discuss it It would be so very refreshing to hear a company just say "let's not throw incendiary memos around at work; it upsets people", instead of feeding the fire with a rationalized social stance. Actually, I _have_ seen great CEO's defuse situations like this. I don't understand why it's not done more often.

I take umbrage that its actually harmful - I'd totally get behind the idea that its a gross distraction.

I really believe truly that each gender (because of biology and societal gender roles) has been given some unique problems solving gifts - and that we're shoving square pegs in round holes to gloss that over - but there is no universality here - I've seen men that are amazing at 'people' problems - and women who are fantastic at 'thing' problems - gender in my opinion is just another factor - like experience, knowledge, personality, education (and even age - often in engineering older is better) and others that factor into whether someone is suitable for a role.

Right now, however, we as a society are not.. 'evolved' enough to discuss stuff like this as rational adults - it turns into a very personal argument very very quickly and ends up doing more harm than the (very real, but) small good that can be accomplished by taking into account what is inherent to us.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#14
The core of what he is asking, and failed to drilled into sufficiently in my view, is exactly what the OP says: what % of the gender gap in various fields can be explained (within that field specifically) due to demographically correlated population preferences vs other factors.

I think there are two unforced errors:

- Trying to tie things back to causation due to biological factors gave cherry pickers sufficient ammo to snipe him as some kind of supremacist, sexist, bigot, whatever. Explaining causation was unnecessary for his argument. All that was needed was highlighting statistical correlations measured on demographics which could influence career choice. The question then reduces down to "do these correlations actually influence career choice or not" not anything about causation. From there, it's easy to ask "if so, how much? Zero is an acceptable answer."

- He should have made a good faith argument of what the world looks like if you assume these demographically correlated attributes have no effect. It was important that he really highlight other potential explanations, since to people who disagree with his premise fundamentally, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Once illustrated, leave it to readers to decide on the absurdity or validity of that counter example. Some would consider it a sufficient "proof" by counter example to make his point, others would not be convinced but at least could digest his argument more likely as one of good faith not bigotry.

In general, a lack of empathy for the lens through which his biggest, most vocal critic will read his argument was his undoing. The best path to having this discussion (regardless of merit) would be to continually buttress the argument on all sides with qualifiers and signs of good faith to those who will read it in the worst possible light. He did some of that, but not nearly enough.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#16

> However, his overall claim that there exist personality differences between genders that differentially affect men’s and women’s interest in and aptitude for tech jobs, is what people are mostly getting mad at. And that’s a claim that seems plausibly true. Not obviously true, but also not a claim you would be justified in emphatically dismissing as false, as many people have, including Google, who called them “inco…

Hear! hear!

It's very sad to me that we as a society are not.. 'evolved' enough to discuss stuff like this as rational adults - it turns into a very personal argument very very quickly because people feel you are attacking their identity - rather than say, discussing things they have no control over because of the weird mix of nature and nurture that guides us into adulthood.

I'm hoping sincerely that the era of identity politics ends soon - we as individuals are much more than the things that could lead to an "-ism" or lead to someone being branded an "-ist".

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#17
I don't understand why it's such big news. No matter what's in it, it's just some random guy who happens to work at google. It's not a senior exec, it's not an official google position, it's.... nothing. I just don't understand why what this guy thinks warrants discussion?

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#18
post #5

I don’t doubt that the writer of the memo had the best of intentions with this memo. And there’s even some parts that I could support. But the main thing that gets to me is the idea of biological differences being partially to blame. He views males as predetermined to be better engineers. And he was a senior engineer who was in a hiring position. Someone who is hiring engineers, that views female engineers as biologi…

>But the main thing that gets to me is the idea of biological differences being partially to blame.

The fact that something "gets you" doesn't in any way determine whether or not it's true.

>He views males as predetermined to be better engineers.

No he doesn't.

>that views female engineers as biologically inferior for the job

He doesn't appear to believe that either.

I feel like for you to believe what you do about the content of that memo you either didn't actually read it or have a serious lack of understanding of statistics. This chart from the memo will hopefully help. http://i.imgur.com/IaVS70v.jpg

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#19

> However, his overall claim that there exist personality differences between genders that differentially affect men’s and women’s interest in and aptitude for tech jobs, is what people are mostly getting mad at. And that’s a claim that seems plausibly true. Not obviously true, but also not a claim you would be justified in emphatically dismissing as false, as many people have, including Google, who called them “inco…

Also well put.

Re: Brief thoughts on the “Google memo”

#20

> However, his overall claim that there exist personality differences between genders that differentially affect men’s and women’s interest in and aptitude for tech jobs, is what people are mostly getting mad at. And that’s a claim that seems plausibly true. Not obviously true, but also not a claim you would be justified in emphatically dismissing as false, as many people have, including Google, who called them “inco…

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