Live data from Hacker News

Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

recode.net

41–50 of 71 posts

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#41
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can never use the phrase "backed up by studies", then?

The scientific articles I read don't use that phrase because they actually cite the studies for their assertions, which makes the phrase "backed by studies" redundant. Also, these articles rarely tackle a subject in which "backed by studies" is either use as a rhetorical device or sufficiently accurate. What does "backed" actually mean -- to either scientists or laypersons? If you believe that scientific studies shou…

More recent studies cited by Brian Nosek here:

https://twitter.com/BrianNosek/status/895410735412543492

And one of his summary tweets:

> “My takeaways: Some observed effects are easy to attribute to culture and hard to attribute to biology in the simplistic dichotomy.”

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can never use the phrase "backed up by studies", then?

[flagged]

Please leave personal attacks out of this. I've done the courtesy of reading Damore's memo and citing and quoting from his linked references. Don't reduce my interest in discussion to having an "extreme axe to grind", which is somewhat ironic since I'm in the demographic that Damore's memo purports to advocate for.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#43
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP doesn't refer to "online criticism". The second sentence of the lede refers to "online harassment": > Google CEO Sundar Pichai has canceled the company’s much anticipated meeting to talk about gender issues today. The move came after some of its employees expressed concern over online harassment they had begun to receive after their questions and names have been published outside the company on a variety of la…

So... let's be reasonable here. If our goal is to protect those individuals, wouldn't you simply use those questions anonymously...?

I haven't used "Dory" but am assuming that yes, questions could be read without referring to their author. I interpreted from the OP's wording that screenshots/snapshots of Dory were leaked, and these leaks would have contained names attached to questions. The Google CEO doesn't elaborate, but maybe the Googlers who expressed concerns to him were afraid that when the questions were made public, doxxers would make public the identities of the questioners?

So sure, maybe the internal Dory system should have been configured for anonymity. Come to think of it, Google should have just used its own Forms, which allows respondents to authenticate via email address, and for responses to be stored into a private, management-only spreadsheet. I think it's safe to say Google has handled many aspects of its response to Damore in a sub-optimal way.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#44
post #40
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might not be a crazy idea, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign Invite everyone to freely share ideas. Make lists, then kick out those with the "wrong" ideas. The are often comparisons between large corporations' command economy and the now failed countries with centralized command economy. But perhaps there are interesting parallels about how large corporations discover and weed out those with…

Why should Google fire people for having the "wrong" ideas, when Google has made it clear that they'll fire people whose ideas conflict with its code of conduct? https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html Damore asserted that his ideas should be heeded by Google (from the very first paragraph: "This needs to change"). And he makes assertions about how Google has been poorly conducting himself: https:/…

> Employment here is based solely upon individual merit and qualifications directly related to professional competence. We strictly prohibit unlawful discrimination or harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, veteran status, national origin, ancestry, pregnancy status, sex, gender identity or expression, age, marital status, mental or physical disability, medical condition, sexual orientation, or any other characteristics protected by law. We also make all reasonable accommodations to meet our obligations under laws protecting the rights of the disabled.

From the code of conduct. "XX% of hiring must be of phenotype Y" is in direct violation of the code of conduct. "If two candidates of phenotype X and Y are equally qualified, prefer the X candidate" is in direct violation of the code of conduct. "Target hiring search based on phenotype X" is in direct violation of the code of conduct.

Edit. "women-in-tech initiatives" _are not_ a form of discrimination. Phenotype-based hiring and promotion policies _are_.

Edit2. There is no such thing as protected groups under law. There are only protected characteristics. For example, sex. One can't discriminate on the basis of sex, _either_ female or male. Favoring females is de-favoring males, thus discrimination.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#45
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what he said, your example just implicitly excludes Python Language devs.

No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Googlers who have written memos like Damore's and were then fired" ? Damore's situation is a specific one, and he made specific claims about the importance of freedom of expression at Google: A. Damore spoke out about how Googlers shouldn't feel unsafe to express themselves. B. People at Google are reportedly int…

I see what you're saying, but it's an edge case for the No True Scotsman, with a mix of "moving the goal posts," i.e what real sincerity is like.

>No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example?

"Sincere people."

There's also tinges of "wishful thinking."

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

It's only a fallacy if it isn't true. Is it not true that a supporter of freedom of speech would support other people's freedom to disagree with him without being doxxed by his supporters? It seems to me that it is true, at least if the supporter's conception of freedom of speech includes freedom from harassment after speaking, which Damore certainly appears to be believe to be true. Having said that, although I thin…

Actually, rhetorical forms are fallacies if they are not universally true. That they may be true in particular instances is not important.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#47
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea Stefan was not the greatest choice. But I thought he did well on Bloomberg, even though Emily Chang had it out for him. Cancelling the Town Hall is a cop out.

It's not much of a "town hall" if employees are afraid to participate.

This fear would be a little more credible if we hadn't already read that the original memo caused widespread "terror" in a number of employees.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#48
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Google fire people for having the "wrong" ideas, when Google has made it clear that they'll fire people whose ideas conflict with its code of conduct? https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html Damore asserted that his ideas should be heeded by Google (from the very first paragraph: "This needs to change"). And he makes assertions about how Google has been poorly conducting himself: https:/…

> Employment here is based solely upon individual merit and qualifications directly related to professional competence. We strictly prohibit unlawful discrimination or harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, veteran status, national origin, ancestry, pregnancy status, sex, gender identity or expression, age, marital status, mental or physical disability, medical condition, sexual orientation, or any other c…

> "XX% of hiring must be of phenotype Y" is in direct violation of the code of conduct.

Does Google have mandated quotas? For which demographic, because they seem to be either ignoring them (which would mean they aren't mandates) or aiming pretty low when it comes to women and non-asians. Or they coincidentally ended up with roughly the same quotas as all the other large tech companies:

http://fortune.com/2017/06/29/google-2017-diversity-report/

> "If two candidates of phenotype X and Y are equally qualified, prefer the X candidate" is in direct violation of the code of conduct.

"prefer the X candidate" (if X is a stand-in for a gender/racial/subgroup of protected category) is plain illegal. So I'm assuming that's not an official Google mandate (without further evidence).

But this would be a pointless mandate anyway as there is no such thing as "equally qualified". Has a hiring manager ever had to decide between identical twins who went to the same schools and internships for the same amount of years and received the same grades and job evaluations? Is there a universally agreed upon conversion scale upon which we know how many years at MIT equals a year at Harvard (or vice versa), and how that translates into "qualification points" depending on job title?

> "Target hiring search based on phenotype X" is in direct violation of the code of conduct.

Uh, well since we're trying to interpret the letter and spirit of the quoted passage in the Code of Conduct, I hope it isn't pedantic to point out that the quoted passage specifically refers to the basis of "employment" and employment is related to, but not recruitment? I mean, has there ever been a recruiting process that was unaffected by factors unrelated to "individual merit and qualifications"? LinkedIn built a unicorn business off of the bias of networks. Before LinkedIn, there was this concept called "references".

If you're suggesting it's wrong for a job search to prioritize diversity, at what level? I'm not a lawyer but let's assume that a policy of "reject all applications from whites and non-females" would be legally prohibited. However, sending a recruiter to do a luncheon at Smith College or Howard University is clearly not illegal. But is it "wrong" or suboptimal if Google sends a recruiter to those colleges even though it's much cheaper to do a recruiting tour at Stanford and Berkeley? Does the extra expenditure for sending a recruiter to colleges that are mostly black/women constitute evidence that Google has racial/gender biases, because it's spending more money to recruit at colleges that have far fewer whites/men than the average college? What about donating to and allowing employees to spend worktime assisting and interacting with programs like Black Girls Code or the Society of Women Engineers, which would presumably increase the chances that members of those organizations end up successfully networking with Google recruiters?

Just as Damore argued in his memo, diversity is not as simple as skin color or gender. So it stands to reason that initiatives with the aim of supporting and increasing diversity or not simple, nor reducible to "Google hires unqualified non-white-males in the pursuit of public relations/appeasing SJWs", which is how Damore seemed to interpret things.

But why should we assume Damore has interpreted Google's initiatives correctly, which would imply that the Google employees who agree or participate in these initiatives are idiots and/or complicit in discrimination? He didn't name any specific people or employees so it's possible that he's had adequate interaction with the initiatives and its facilitators to make a privileged assessment of them. If he has evidence that these programs led to either illegal discrimination of qualified candidates, and/or the hiring of inferior candidates, I'm assuming he'll bring that up with his complaint to the NLRB.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#49
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much of a "town hall" if employees are afraid to participate.

This fear would be a little more credible if we hadn't already read that the original memo caused widespread "terror" in a number of employees.

Or if there was a history of alt right groups doxxing and harassing people they disagreed with, which there is - see Gamergate.

Re: Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to employee fears of harassment

#50
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Googlers who have written memos like Damore's and were then fired" ? Damore's situation is a specific one, and he made specific claims about the importance of freedom of expression at Google: A. Damore spoke out about how Googlers shouldn't feel unsafe to express themselves. B. People at Google are reportedly int…

I see what you're saying, but it's an edge case for the No True Scotsman, with a mix of "moving the goal posts," i.e what real sincerity is like. >No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Sincere people." There's also tinges of "wishful thinking."

Don't get me wrong, the rhetorical trick that idlewords is implied to use is just as annoying. Like, "If pro-life people truly cared about human and babies lives, why don't they speak up for single-payer healthcare?" It involves irrational assumptions and/or over-simplification of issues. And its implications are itself a logical fallacy: If people who support A also support B, and people who support C support B, then people who believe in A but not C are hypocrites

But No True Scotsman fallacies can occur without those pre-requisites and it's a common enough fallacy that it deserves its own term, so that it's easier to identify and denounce its use.

Also, I really want to know if there is a specific phrase/category that describes what idlewords is accused of, for the same reasons of easier identification and denunciation :)

Post reply on HN