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Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

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Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is senior leadership lying through their teeth about valuing diversity of opinion.

But surely not all opinions are welcome in the workplace. If someone spread a document that said, 'we shouldn't hire muslims because we can't trust their loyalties', surely expressing that opinion would merit firing. And there's also the question of how opinions are expressed. When you post something publicly for wide distribution, there's much less room to walk things back or to discreetly talk through things. Damor…

> If someone spread a document that said, 'we shouldn't hire muslims because we can't trust their loyalties'

That escalated quickly!

I think a closer example is someone saying "I support the trump immigration ban".

With the far left crowd who have been hyped up by the media this causes the same feelings as saying "I want to ban Muslims" and "I hate Muslims".

> And there's also the question of how opinions are expressed.

That's true. I'm not suprised he was fired.

From reading some of the leaked internal posts it looks like there is significant bullying of conservatives.

It doesn't look good for Google. Wage fixing, being investigated for pay gap issues, clearly bully conservatives, etc.

Hopefully a court case can reveal the truth.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you impose social contact, people are going to practice social contact and improve at social contact. It might not be what some relatively antisocial people want, but it seems like an important improvement for the whole team.

I'm not sure why "pair programming" is the go-to tool here. It certainly implies something different to a lot of people, myself included. Pair programming is not a "social" outlet. It's collaborative, but "social?" That's quite a stretch of the word from where I think James used it.

Like I said, I am not seeking agreement on the merit of his idea.

You specifically said that the suggestion of Pair Programming, was due to James thinking that women are "less capable of individual action".

But you also said "It's a technique to improve product reliability and give more practical mentorship opportunities." Which is also my understanding. I know at least one shop where everybody pair programs. It has nothing to do with programmers being inferior. I also agree that paring is more sociable since every day I will have to greet my team mate, talk about stuff, have a coffee, then get to work.

I'm just trying to understand how "Pair Programming" changes meaning so much just because some dude wrote a manifesto. We can't even have a discussion if our understanding of the same document is so wildly different.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#793
post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you misread or misunderstood Damore's letter. [Damore] "I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership." He did exactly what I said - he complained about the plight of conservatives at Google, and he suggested that women as a…

I didn't say your characterization of Damore's arguments was wrong, I said it was unfair. What I meant by that was that you stripped statements of context and nuance and represented them with negative connotations that are not warranted based on the original context. My understanding of your statement was that you were suggesting that Damore made definitive statements that are muddled and contradictory. If that was a…

I appreciate your response too, and I'm not impugning your motives, nor judging you. I have no doubt you believe your motives to be good and in the interest of fairness and equality. Many men who are siding with Damore believe that. What I do think is that you're not fully prepared for this discussion and not aware of the history and causes of discrimination and systematic bias. Do you know about the book "The Bell Curve" and the controversy it caused in the 90's? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve Don't skip the "criticisms" section.

> I think we all agree that judging the capabilities of an individual based on their biological sex is bullshit.

You're further demonstrating a misreading of Damore's letter. Yes I do agree, judging engineers according to biological sex is bullshit. If you agree with that, then you didn't understand what Damore said. The memo says explicitly "the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.

I think you actually don't agree with Damore, and you just don't know it yet.

Talking about how he hedged with a "may" and didn't state it as fact is a huge cop-out. He stated as fact that abilities are different (for which there's no evidence.) What he proposed is that the imbalance in current distribution might be caused by a proportional imbalance of ability (for which there exists mountains of contrary evidence). The entire point behind his statement is to establish that biological sex could be responsible for the distribution imbalance, and it's possible there's no sexism or discrimination against women going on, and thus nothing to fix. This is FUD. It doesn't matter whether he's claiming it's a fact, what he's doing is casting doubt.

The problem with denying that discrimination exists and asserting there are other causes is obvious: it's hypocritical, it's a way of discriminating.

> The most dangerous word in your statement is "innately".

I am using 'innate' as synonymous with biological, meaning hard-wired and unchangeable, a trait that comes with the package. Let me re-phrase, Damore suggested that woman as a group are biologically less capable technologists than men. This is the same sense that other people in this thread used 'innate'. It may help you to lookup the definition, e.g. "adj. Possessed at birth; inborn. adj. Possessed as an essential characteristic; inherent."

> If I remove it [innately] from your statement, than it becomes incontrovertibly true. Women as a group are less capable technologist, by simple nature of the fact that there are fewer of them.

I know you don't mean to sound as bad as you do, but that sounds really, really bad. The capability of any individual has nothing to do with how many others there are. In this specific case, it's quite possible that the few women in tech are more capable than the average man. Damore was not suggesting that women are less capable as a group because there are fewer of them, he suggested that it's possible that women can't do tech as well as men because they're women.

> I think you should ask yourself how comfortable you are with the following statement: "There are differences in the distribution of cognitive traits in the populations of males and females based on biological sex." (I use the word cognitive here to mainly refer to emotional differences though of course it can have other meanings. I apologize for using such broad language here but I felt that it was suited to this context)

You might also want to look up the word 'cognitive'. It doesn't mean what you think it does, and you just misused it pretty badly. Taken at face value, that statement would suggest to most people that the mean IQ of women is different than the mean IQ of men, which I already know you don't believe.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Mad at someone for saying you're genetically predisposed to be less capable of individual action? He never said that. Could you cite the portion where he literally says women are less capable?

Do the last two bullet points of his tl;dr count?: * Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. * Discrimination to reach equal representation is [...] bad for business. Which I read as, "woman aren't as good, that's why they don't already work here, if we hire more of them, they'll not be able to do the job as…

Definitely unreasonable reading. Could you explain how you got from the two quoted propositions to your interpretation?

The first bullet point exemplified: Let's say there's a job that requires trait openness / empathy to a certain degree (e.g. early education). Now, some given statistics show that e.g. 40% of the female population and 20% of the male population have this manifestation of the trait to the required degree. Would you still expect a 50/50 male/female representation in the field? The author makes the argument that, if the statistics he found are correct, he wouldn't expect a 50/50 split.

The second bullet point just says that discrimination for the sole sake of said equal representation is bad for business, because given the above it would have to be necessarily unmeritocratic. I would contest this point in a sense that individual merit is not the sole factor at which to look, because it is only a single factor in group success, where the availability of diverse ways of thinking and social compatibility also play major roles.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#795
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't this memo a reply to survey about diversity within Google? So they kinda asked for that topic themselves and there happened to be this one guy unkeen to jump into cheer pressure, trying politely and using best available to him science materials to defend his own belief? Also, "Blacks on average are [insert negative here]" is quite a bad title, I agree. But "On average we don't get much productivity return from…

> Wasn't this memo a reply to survey about diversity within Google? I don't know. Does anyone have a reliable source on this? > "On average we don't get much productivity return from pursuing black candidates specifically and here's why" is probably more acceptable, Just as bad. This has nothing to do with scientific truth or even how to better word scientific truth, although it's not surprising many HN readers like…

> Does anyone have a reliable source on this?

Initially, he submitted the document as a feedback for a “diversity summit” he attended. Here's the source:

https://youtu.be/agU-mHFcXdw?t=9m15s

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#796
post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wasn't this memo a reply to survey about diversity within Google? I don't know. Does anyone have a reliable source on this? > "On average we don't get much productivity return from pursuing black candidates specifically and here's why" is probably more acceptable, Just as bad. This has nothing to do with scientific truth or even how to better word scientific truth, although it's not surprising many HN readers like…

I agree that grouping by skin colour is statistically insignificant, just trying to re-phrase your title. Although, I still think that if the content underneath that question was about even more diverse workforce: in additional to blacks hiring Mexicans, Asians, Arabs etc. it would be acceptable if a company was targeting only blacks at the time. > There is just some shit you can't say in a workplace without making s…

> (happy to receive recommendations)

One of the best books that helped me early in my programming career was "Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In". Some other books helped to varying degrees.

But the tough news is that, in my experience, the best way to learn people skills is in a very "public" way: by interacting with people. I wish I had understood this earlier and tried to learn less from books. Learning a foreign language is not much different. You make far quicker progress by speaking with other people than from any other method.

I did attend a people skills seminar that work paid for and found that to be super helpful. That's where I had the genuis realization that you have to actually practice interacting with people to get better at interacting with people! Duh! I would highly recommend any one or two day seminar where they include practice time with the other participants. It's a safe place to make mistakes and learn - that's what everyone is there for. Accidentally walking into the women's bathroom was not one of the mistakes I planned on making there, but hey, it was possibly the best place ever I could have made that awkward mistake. Ha!

In any case, lots of progress is attainable. I went from being (sometimes) nervous if I had to speak to a room full of three (!) people, to now having made dozens of public presentations in front of audiences as large as two hundred people. I've taught many classes. I have even done sucessful sales pitches, when there is no one better around. It took me decades, and a lot of mistakes to get where I am. Am I a super star at people skills? I don't think so. But I am way better than where I started and I look forward to and enjoy situtations that usually would have made me nervous in the past.

So if you really want to improve your people skills, you'll have to put yourself in social situations. Small doses are best at first. Like anything you want to learn, you should have a specific objective for what you are trying to learn each "practice session", and a way to measure success. Like learning a musical instrument or foreign language, if you practice fifteen minutes a day, you'll see very steady progress. If you practice once a month for a few hours, you probably won't progress much at all.

I hinted at a problem with this before: when you fail at learning people skills it's in a public way. Social mistakes can have social consequences. The point here is that you might want to avoid doing much of your practicing or "experiments" in social groups that are important to you: work for example. That doesn't mean you can't learn some things at work. Study your co-workers who are great a people skills. Spend as much time with them as you can (or can bear to) and pay careful attention to how they interact with others.

But try to find other places for the really difficult learning. Does everyone who joins a wood working club do so because they want to make a table? Or is it possible some of the folks there are hoping to meet their future wood working wife? Who cares? Same for you if you joined a club that has a minor interest to you, but you want to use it to improve your social skills. And I don't mean at all to imply that you can just do social experiments on people in the club with no regard to their feelings and to just use them. Of course not. But if you make a really embarassing mistake, and just cannot bring yourself to face those people again, well, it's certainly not going to effect your ability to pay rent, is it? It's far more likely you'll make some new friends there. Casual friends, permanent friends, temporary friends, your best friends, or even if you make no friends, it's just a club. People move on and forget.

Finally, I would also say to only do what you really want. There's plenty of room in the world for people who are good at something other than people skills. But if you do manage to make improvements, I think you will see it improve your life in every area in ways you can hardly imagine now. Hope some of that helps! Best of luck.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#797
post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ask a Muslim which will change first: their gender, their skin color, or whether Mohammed was Allah's prophet. You are generalizing in a way that will create animosity. There are liberal people which identify as muslims. Even though most religious people identify themselves by their religious affiliations, not all do, and not everbody is religious. I think religion is a cancerous meme, that we shouldn't pay respect…

> You are generalizing in a way that will create animosity > I think religion is a cancerous meme My underlying point was that people with faith don't see their faith as a choice about the existence and character of their god (or other non-deist beliefs). It's not objective or accurate to say religion is different because it's a choice. If anyone is offended by my point, I would challenge them to rethink their assump…

I wouldn't say that your point necessarily offends anybody. My point is that it might be not clever to present it like that. One way to get rid of enemies is to befriend them.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#798

Great perspective. As a Northern European having dealt with American company ownership I don't think the main problem in Google's case was political correctness but rather a general American problem with how free speech is defined in the US. Freedom in America is always about government NOT doing something, while in Europe government is defined as a protector of these freedoms. This shows up clearly with respect to s…

I agree with you. I'm from India, living in the US, for quite some time I thoroughly enjoyed the FoS and FoE concepts exercised in the public (IMO, India is nowhere close to such freedom), but the levels of political correctness among peers seems to be a little too suffocating, which is exactly the thing I miss from my Indian experience.

It's like the moment you try to have a conversation about some serious topic, you feel like you are receiving youtube comments in person.

Only recently, I realized this requirement for PC is why most social talking in the US tend to be about sport (NFL, NHL, NBA), TV (Game of Thrones or some reality shows) or podcasts.

Dare to speak about a social issue or challenge a solution that's supposed to be addressing the issue, you'll be at the receiving end of a verbal lynch mob.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#799
post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implication means not explicit. Thus it's up to your interpretation. The context also can affect the implications, including the author's actions after the publication (his interviews on YouTube).

So I should prefer your interpretation over my own because...?

I wouldn't expect you to. Inference of tone and context is often quite subjective. I won't bother arguing it beyond pointing out that there can be reasonable differences if opinion.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#800
post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I gathered, yes. Unquestionably! In a message board with the name "pc-considered-harmful" What did they think was going to get posted onto that board, if not this memo?

In retrospect, it almost seems like they were fishing for people who have 'unsavory opinions' so they can force them to attend diversity training (even the name is Orwellian) and fire them if it doesn't work out.

I can really feel for people who were offended by this memo. Who were the target of this memo, or the "butt" of it. I'm really sorry that this is where we are at. But the parts of the memo that I read were hard to paint as non-factual if read with a clear head and objective mind.

Every one claim I read that pointed at a specific part and said the writing here was putting forward a horrible opinion that nobody should hold, let alone express in company of others; those clauses were cited with sources and facts to show that the author's expression was of fact, or of research that justified policies and not of a personal opinion. It is vitriol and easy to read "wrong," and as I read and re-read the parts that are most quoted, I can understand how people are so offended. But it is text, not violence, and it is through text and honest discourses that progress can be made! "You don't have to apologise for your feelings," I want to tell them, "but put those down for a second so we can get something done alright?"

The part I read that in isolation, I will agree wholeheartedly is a terrible sentiment, I was able to step back and read factually instead and see where he was saying, in not so many words, "it's not my idea, this is what the research says, and that fact plus inequality is why we got these also sexist policies, a new kind of the old kind of discrimination."

You can't simply punish a man for living in the time he was born, and call it fair; expect that nobody should address the facts on paper, a discriminatory policy, the elephant in the room, or whatever. "Don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining." Please note I did not read the whole memo, but that was the gist of it that I got.

We will never get to a time where we can talk about how "now we are in perfect equality, and there's no more injustice, though it was not always so;" if we can't freely talk about the ways in which we are not, equals, including honest and full discussion of programs and policies that enforce and perpetuate that inequality.

That being said, it seems that lines are being drawn and certain justifications or arguments are on that side of the line. I can fully understand how one on the receiving end of this kind of fire and vitriol might rightly react.

I do think he has a case for slander at least against the leadership. He has been smeared, I have no doubt of that from just reading the CEOs statement, but with the caveat that I don't know him personally and he could really be all those things. I'm just going off the document.

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